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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 15:54:19 GMT -5
I really don't think it means to imply most men are bad. It's saying (perhaps a bit heavy-handedly), "look dudes, some guys out there act like douchebags sometimes. Don't be that guy. In fact, be the guy who calls those guys out. Be an affirmatively extra good guy." We can question whether this message is best sent by a razor company. But I think, actually, it's a worthwhile message. It's not just that some guys behave badly. Very unfortunately, a lot of these guys behave badly to impress other guys. E.g., guys who catcall. Come on. How many guys get action by yelling "NICE TITS, BABY!" None, that's how many. But as women who walk by construction sites or gangs of youths on street corners know, it's not about that. It's about them showing their dudebros how cool they are. I think Trump calls it "locker room talk"... And the mansplaining thing (the guy in the meeting going "I think what she really means to say is...") -- a lot of guys don't even realize they are doing it. I've had a zillion guys try to educate me on things I actually know waaaaay more about than they do. Like law, for example. And yeah, it's always a guy doing it. It's douche behavior. Think of the arguments made to defend Brett Kavanaugh's behavior. Let's face it, if he did that shit (and I think he did at least some of it, e.g., Christine Ford), he did it to impress Squi and P.J. Even if he didn't do it, a lot of other young guys do. We've all been in high school and college. Are you gonna tell me you've never seen guys act like douches with girls to impress other dudes? So what the commercial is trying to do, I think is to say "look, call the douches out. let them know their behavior disgusts you, not impresses you. Don't just be silent." And it's adding "Yo, if you're doing that 'what she really means to say is...' or calling a woman strident or cutting her off constantly in meetings etc." -- yeah, it's actually pretty sexist and women get a lot of it, so be aware of that, and by the way, please think twice about calling them "hysterical" "strident" and "shrill" and consider if you'd say the same if a man were doing exactly the same thing." It's not the same kind of douche, and a lot of guys don't even realize they're doing it -- I think the commercial is pointing it out. Heavy-handed, maybe -- but the guys who call this shit out instead of shutting up are really helpful. In some instances, the Brett-Kavanaugh-y alleged situation ones, they might stop a girl from being raped. Douche men are more likely to listen to other men than they are to the women, whom the frankly don't respect in the first place. Stop and picture your wife or mom or daughter or sister in the position of the woman, and ask yourself how you'd feel. It's ADDRESSED to the good guys, IMO. Not to say "oh, you suck, man-person" but to say "Keep being a good guy. And be an extra good guy -- help call out the bad guys." Again, a commercial is maybe not the best place for it. But I think that's the intent. A similar message might be addressed to kids in school. Obviously, not all kids are bullies by any means. But of course there will always be bullies. And sometimes kids aren't really aware just how harmful some forms of bullying are -- excluding kids, jeering at them and calling them fat or poor or ugly or stupid. They're silent or they giggle, even if they don't participate. They don't call it out. But a lot of bullies actually use that as power -- they don't get called out, they get to dominate over other kids, they get people laughing along, even it out of fear. Would a commercial showing forms of bullying, not just hitting kids, but more subtle forms of cruelty, and encouraging kids not to do it and to call out kids who do -- would that be stereotyping all kids as bullies? Would it be discriminating against them? IMO, no. If it were done well, it might be helpful. One of my nieces, when she was seven years old or so, said something thoughtlessly cruel to another kid on a playground. Okay, she was just a kid herself. But I sat her down immediately and talked to her about how she'd feel if someone said that to her. She apologized to the kid of her own accord, and she actually felt really shitty about it. The fact was, until I stopped and pointed out that her words could hurt, she really didn't stop to think about it. I made her stop and think. Some parents don't do that. One of my friend's kids, who was 9 or 10 at the time, was feeling bratty and said to one of our other friends (an adult who is about 100 pounds overweight) "you're FAT!" The kid's parent was out of earshot. I quietly let the mom know what had happened so she could address it. The parent said "Oh, pfft, he's just a kid. I'm sure X didn't take offense." I was frankly horrified. It wasn't just that she wasn't going to address it right then -- she saw no reason to address it ever. Yeah, no. The kid needs to understand that it's not cool to do that shit, and why.* Anyway. Bullying, like the douchebro behavior in the commercial, is a problem. A bit of education and encouraging the good 'uns to step up and call out the bad 'uns might help. ETA: Worth noting that this particular mom has had the school call her about her kid's bullying behavior on more than one occasion. She thinks they're just picking on her kid, whom she persists in thinking is just "feisty." Yeah, he's not feisty. He's now in his early teens, and he's kind of an arrogant fuckhead -- one of the few kids I don't really like. Mom ain't gonna call him out. Either other people will, or he'll probably just get worse.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 16, 2019 19:52:10 GMT -5
I really don't think it means to imply most men are bad. It's saying (perhaps a bit heavy-handedly), "look dudes, some guys out there act like douchebags sometimes. Don't be that guy. In fact, be the guy who calls those guys out. Be an affirmatively extra good guy." We can question whether this message is best sent by a razor company. But I think, actually, it's a worthwhile message. It's not just that some guys behave badly. Very unfortunately, a lot of these guys behave badly to impress other guys. E.g., guys who catcall. Come on. How many guys get action by yelling "NICE TITS, BABY!" None, that's how many. But as women who walk by construction sites or gangs of youths on street corners know, it's not about that. It's about them showing their dudebros how cool they are. I think Trump calls it "locker room talk"... And the mansplaining thing (the guy in the meeting going "I think what she really means to say is...") -- a lot of guys don't even realize they are doing it. I've had a zillion guys try to educate me on things I actually know waaaaay more about than they do. Like law, for example. And yeah, it's always a guy doing it. It's douche behavior. Think of the arguments made to defend Brett Kavanaugh's behavior. Let's face it, if he did that shit (and I think he did at least some of it, e.g., Christine Ford), he did it to impress Squi and P.J. Even if he didn't do it, a lot of other young guys do. We've all been in high school and college. Are you gonna tell me you've never seen guys act like douches with girls to impress other dudes? So what the commercial is trying to do, I think is to say "look, call the douches out. let them know their behavior disgusts you, not impresses you. Don't just be silent." And it's adding "Yo, if you're doing that 'what she really means to say is...' or calling a woman strident or cutting her off constantly in meetings etc." -- yeah, it's actually pretty sexist and women get a lot of it, so be aware of that, and by the way, please think twice about calling them "hysterical" "strident" and "shrill" and consider if you'd say the same if a man were doing exactly the same thing." It's not the same kind of douche, and a lot of guys don't even realize they're doing it -- I think the commercial is pointing it out. Heavy-handed, maybe -- but the guys who call this shit out instead of shutting up are really helpful. In some instances, the Brett-Kavanaugh-y alleged situation ones, they might stop a girl from being raped. Douche men are more likely to listen to other men than they are to the women, whom the frankly don't respect in the first place. Stop and picture your wife or mom or daughter or sister in the position of the woman, and ask yourself how you'd feel. It's ADDRESSED to the good guys, IMO. Not to say "oh, you suck, man-person" but to say "Keep being a good guy. And be an extra good guy -- help call out the bad guys." Again, a commercial is maybe not the best place for it. But I think that's the intent. A similar message might be addressed to kids in school. Obviously, not all kids are bullies by any means. But of course there will always be bullies. And sometimes kids aren't really aware just how harmful some forms of bullying are -- excluding kids, jeering at them and calling them fat or poor or ugly or stupid. They're silent or they giggle, even if they don't participate. They don't call it out. But a lot of bullies actually use that as power -- they don't get called out, they get to dominate over other kids, they get people laughing along, even it out of fear. Would a commercial showing forms of bullying, not just hitting kids, but more subtle forms of cruelty, and encouraging kids not to do it and to call out kids who do -- would that be stereotyping all kids as bullies? Would it be discriminating against them? IMO, no. If it were done well, it might be helpful. One of my nieces, when she was seven years old or so, said something thoughtlessly cruel to another kid on a playground. Okay, she was just a kid herself. But I sat her down immediately and talked to her about how she'd feel if someone said that to her. She apologized to the kid of her own accord, and she actually felt really shitty about it. The fact was, until I stopped and pointed out that her words could hurt, she really didn't stop to think about it. I made her stop and think. Some parents don't do that. One of my friend's kids, who was 9 or 10 at the time, was feeling bratty and said to one of our other friends (an adult who is about 100 pounds overweight) "you're FAT!" The kid's parent was out of earshot. I quietly let the mom know what had happened so she could address it. The parent said "Oh, pfft, he's just a kid. I'm sure X didn't take offense." I was frankly horrified. It wasn't just that she wasn't going to address it right then -- she saw no reason to address it ever. Yeah, no. The kid needs to understand that it's not cool to do that shit, and why.* Anyway. Bullying, like the douchebro behavior in the commercial, is a problem. A bit of education and encouraging the good 'uns to step up and call out the bad 'uns might help. ETA: Worth noting that this particular mom has had the school call her about her kid's bullying behavior on more than one occasion. She thinks they're just picking on her kid, whom she persists in thinking is just "feisty." Yeah, he's not feisty. He's now in his early teens, and he's kind of an arrogant fuckhead -- one of the few kids I don't really like. Mom ain't gonna call him out. Either other people will, or he'll probably just get worse. That's not a bad analogy, but think about it another way.
Imagine you're addressing a group of kids. You know a small group have bullied. A few others laughed along, while others just let it happen. Then you have to ones that keep to themselves. The ones that have tried to stop it. The ones that that are really nice to everyone. And the ones that are often the target of the bullies, including a few who may be considering suicide because of the bullying.
Now address them as if they all are a part of the problem. You make no effort to distinguish between any of them. It's not about affirming the good behavior in the majority, but about shaming them all for the bad behavior of the few.
Most of the bullies aren't going to change. How will the others react, the ones you don't need to change?
If you're going to see me as a bully when I'm not, might as well be.
There's smart and sensitive ways to try and make the point. It's a worthy point. A point worth making.
But it's lost.
Evidence?
This thread. If your message is so muddled that so many see it as an attack on their simply being male, even if that's not what you were trying to say, you need to accept that you didn't say it well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 20:14:50 GMT -5
Well I guess it's a perspective thing; I don't see that ad as "shaming" "all" men. I see it as noting some indisputably bad behavior. If you're engaging in, you SHOULD be shamed. If you're not -- well, what's your problem, exactly? There are men in the commercial calling out the bad behavior and stepping up. Clearly they are presented as good. If you're one of them, you're good. The commercial is encouraging you.
Seriously. Take aside whether you think it's the best way to present this message. (I agree, it's not the best way.) Are YOU, as a man, actually offended and shamed by this commercial? Do you feel that it is targeting men like YOU and telling you that you're a bad person who does this kind of stuff?
I'm gonna be honest -- I think the outrage is faux in many cases. And in other cases, it's outrage from men who DO engage in this behavior and resent being called out on it. I actually do not believe that good, decent men are going around feeling "shamed" by this commercial. You, Vince, are a good and decent man who doesn't do this kind of shit. Do you feel Gillette was calling you out and shaming you? Are you, personally, offended?
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Post by robeiae on Jan 17, 2019 14:37:07 GMT -5
I think probably 90% of the outrage is faux. The other 10% is real, but coming from total knuckledraggers, imo. It doesn't offend me at all, but neither does it impress me, since it doesn't really push an original, thought-provoking message in my view. I can't see how it's particularly effective, either in terms of it's message or in terms of selling Gillette products.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 14:50:21 GMT -5
I think probably 90% of the outrage is faux. The other 10% is real, but coming from total knuckledraggers, imo. It doesn't offend me at all, but neither does it impress me, since it doesn't really push an original, thought-provoking message in my view. I can't see how it's particularly effective, either in terms of it's message or in terms of selling Gillette products. I don't disagree with you.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 17, 2019 15:19:28 GMT -5
Sorry, I disagree. Yes, there's definitely some faux outrage, but I think a lot is genuine and legitimate.
Replay the ad in your head. Take out men, substitute any other group. Women. Muslims. Blacks. Even whites. It implies that men are bad, except maybe a small handful. Because we're all the beer drinking, bar brawling, slut shaming variety. The ad shows a young boy getting hit, the victim of other boys. So he's the same? And what about girls who are bullies? Who bully girls or mock and bully boys? Would the reaction be more justified if it used the same language to address bad behavior that's stereotype of girls?
APA just came out with guidelines on how traditional masculinity is harmful. So we've moved away from the term toxic masculinity and now it's traditional.
Men face plenty of issues that are unique. Higher suicide rate, incarceration, etc. Women are very much out performing men in the classroom, yet all programs are aimed at women. A college just settled because it offered millions more for female only programs.
Again, call out the bad behavior. But if your message comes across as being that all men are this, nobody hears the message.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 17, 2019 15:26:13 GMT -5
Gillette caters mostly to men. That's the target audience, regardless of efficacy, so there's no reason to play "switch the groups" here. And I don't think it's intending to say "all men are like this," at all. It's trying--and maybe failing--to suggest that men need to police themselves (which again is hardly an original suggestion, or even a thought-provoking one).
So if you're going to call the campaign a "massive fail," I think that would be fair and defensible. But being "outraged" because it was a massive fail? I don't think so.
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Post by Don on Jan 18, 2019 5:53:46 GMT -5
I find it positively amazing that something as fundamental as good manners has become politicized. It's the pussy-grabbin' Reps vs. the emasculated Dems, and there's no middle ground. All Dems know that all Reps are pussy-grabbers, and all Reps know that all Dems are pussy-whipped.
Grow the fuck up.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 19, 2019 16:02:13 GMT -5
Gillette caters mostly to men. That's the target audience, regardless of efficacy, so there's no reason to play "switch the groups" here. And I don't think it's intending to say "all men are like this," at all. It's trying--and maybe failing--to suggest that men need to police themselves (which again is hardly an original suggestion, or even a thought-provoking one). So if you're going to call the campaign a "massive fail," I think that would be fair and defensible. But being "outraged" because it was a massive fail? I don't think so. I'd say that's probably the fairer way to go. It's not as much outrage like, let's take to the street, as much as it's more of an eye roll and a lot of people don't want to buy Gillette anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2019 16:15:25 GMT -5
I'm not so sure it's "a lot of people" who won't buy Gillette anymore, if we're looking at it as a percentage of men. It will be interesting how this ultimately pans out for their sales.
Remember the Nike kerfuffle? Yeah.
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