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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 13:38:30 GMT -5
Sigh. Not one disputes that many people are shitty money managers. That does not mean that everyone who has no or little savings is. Seriously, you guys really think this? As privileged as I am, I know and have known many people for whom this isn't true. Plenty of people in this situation DID get an education. Their loans help weigh them down. Plenty of people in this situation don't have kids at all or waited. My friend in Buffalo? My cousin in the trailer? Neither has children. You guys know some people who save a bit on a small income? Swell! I do too. And I also know people who I genuinely can't see how they'd save. I cited one above. Do go into his budget and explain where he can save. You can't, unless you assume he doesn't need clothes, stuff for his kid, etc. Apparently you all live in a happy, happy world where well-paying jobs ample to allow people to save are available to all who want them! If your employer doesn't pay you for a few months, you can waltz out your door and into the temporary job just waiting for you! Everyone has family and friends with plenty of resources to help! So if you are in financial trouble, LOL! It's your fault for being a lazy spendthrift! Do let me know where that world is. I'd love to live there. Actually, I think it might be Scandinavia--will have to check with Max. But it sure as fuck ain't America. I'm honestly grossed out by the privilege and lack of awareness and empathy in this thread. I'm signing off and doing some work. Have fun. ...Be aware, though, that your happy, happy world has no people, e.g., cleaning office buildings or working in restaurants or picking fruit or working in grocery stores... See, all those people went out and got educations so they all have good-paying jobs with salaries that enable them to save! All of them! So everyone is earning the big bucks! No one is doing several menial jobs just to get by! Or wait, we need people doing that stuff, so I guess we have to make employers pay them all enough so that they can save! A minimum living wage! Or we have to make those meanie mcmeanie landlords and such lower their rents so that they can afford it! We'll call it rent control! Or we need to make sure there's healthcare for all of them so they don't go into debt for medical expenses! And free college so they can better themselves without acquiring huge loan expenses! Oh. Wait. You people don't want that world. And presumably you think someone needs to be doing those lowly jobs. That means someone, a lot of people, will be earning lowly paychecks. Oh, and you don't want them to get free college and healthcare, so you don't have a problem with them accruing debt to go to college (since they can't do it without it, if they don't have parents who can afford it) or going into bankruptcy if they have a medical problem, so... NO PROBLEM! EVERYONE IN THE WORLD CAN SAVE BIG BUCKS! LOL! As I mentioned, one of my grandfathers was a coal miner who later got a job in a factory. You know who lived in a multi-family household? You know who lived paycheck to paycheck and didn't spend money on whores and beer and yet had no savings? (By the way, he and my grandmother had one kid. My grandfather was 40 and grandma was 30. Guess they should have waited! LOL!) One sold fruit on a streetcorner. You know who lived in a multi-family household? You know who lived paycheck to paycheck and didn't spend money on whores and beer and yet had no savings? Gee, I guess my ancestors were ALL deadbeats. Fuck, guess that explains why I just don't get how easy it is to save the big bucks if you just get a good education and wait to have kids. At least I know I'm privileged.
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Post by prozyan on Jan 17, 2019 13:54:27 GMT -5
so I guess we have to make employers pay them all enough so that they can save! A minimum living wage! Or we have to make those meanie mcmeanie landlords and such lower their rents so that they can afford it! We'll call it rent control! Or we need to make sure there's healthcare for all of them so they don't go into debt for medical expenses! And free college so they can better themselves without acquiring huge loan expenses! Though you are being sarcastic overall in your post, I actually agree with all that I quoted.
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Post by celawson on Jan 17, 2019 13:56:04 GMT -5
Yeah, it always comes back to privilege, doesn't it. Throw that word around, and you think you won the argument. Weak. Also, whores and beer? Prozyan and I gave plenty of examples where people these days waste money. And it's not just whores and beer. How about not carrying over a credit card balance? While using a cash back card? How many people know to do that? How about not buying Starbucks everyday and instead, putting it in a rainy day fund or investing that money conservatively? How about embracing a minimalist lifestyle and ignoring the pressures of consumerism? It can be done.
I meant a solid public school education. Which means doing the work, not barely passing. I know several kids right now who are putting themselves through community college while working. It can be done, and without huge loans or any loans.
And my niece is a waitress and makes better money doing that than she does as an occupational therapy assistant, for which she put herself $50k in debt to go to a private OTA school.
My brother has only a high school education, started working in restaurants at age 15 as a busboy, and is now a regional manager at Beni Hana. He works his butt off, always did, and didn't waste his money. The restaurant business did just fine for him, as it does for a lot of people.
I'd rather live in my happy happy world where people make prudent financial decisions, than in your dire, sad, helpless world that needs Big Gov to help people manage their lives because they can't do it themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 14:04:27 GMT -5
You know what's weak, C.e.? Your insistence on living in an imaginary conservative fantasy world where everyone has a fair and equal shot at middle class bliss and it's purely own fault if they don't have it, and where Donald Trump is a competent leader.
I think privilege often gets thrown around too much, too. But there is NO other word for your viewpoint.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 14:11:23 GMT -5
Though you are being sarcastic overall in your post, I actually agree with all that I quoted. I'd like to see a world that looks a bit more like that, too. We don't live in a country where everyone gets a fair shot. A lot of people start with the deck stacked so far against them they can't get out. I don't think that's good for our society as a whole. And a lot of people who have the deck stacked in their favor don't even see that's the case. They don't see how hard it is --impossible, often --to get your head above water. That's the problem. Like, people who get good health insurance through their job just don't grok what it means to have a job where you don't. Stuff like that. People who squander all their cash on whores and booze or luxuries -- yeah, I don't have lots of sympathy there either. The people who could save and blow their paychecks on totally unnecessary shit -- yeah, fuck 'em. But to me it is nuts not to recognize that a ton of people who are NOT doing that still can't get ahead. Whether you want a society that helps them or not, well, guess that's up to you. But FFS, recognize that they exist. My sarcasm was intended, in that paragraph, not to mock a country that had those things, but rather the fact that a lot of conservatives oppose all of those things, and yet refuse to acknowledge that people earning low wages might struggle to afford those basic things. They wave their hands and say "move to a cheaper place/city"! without considering whether there are cheaper places or how they might afford to move. "Go to college to better yourself!" without considering that it means debt. "Get a better job! Get a temporary part-time job!" without considering that they don't fucking grow on trees, available instantly to all. "Borrow from friends and family" without stopping to think that poor people tend to have poor friends and family. It adds insult to injury to assume that every person struggling to make ends meet is just a spendthrift loser. Some are, sure. But lots aren't. And if you don't know any, can't fathom they exist, you are living in a privileged fantasy bubble, disconnected from the real world.
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Post by markesq on Jan 17, 2019 14:12:18 GMT -5
Are you two really supporting the pay check to pay check lifestyle? That's just weird. Supporting it?? No, I'm recognizing that it is an unescapable reality for millions of Americans. Which, apparently puts me in a minority here.
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Post by celawson on Jan 17, 2019 14:21:09 GMT -5
In a country where there are countless examples of people, both born here and who have immigrated here, who have started from nothing and ended up either comfortable or wealthy, it is a stretch to note that living pay check to pay check is "an unescapable reality for millions of Americans". Unescapable is the stretch part.
Of course there are tragic examples - illness or injury can devastate a family I absolutely admit that. But these aren't the majority. And I would venture to say the majority of government workers who just can't financially survive this shut-down likely have been poorly managing their money for years. It's not my fault, and it's not privilege's fault, sorry.
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Post by Don on Jan 17, 2019 14:28:18 GMT -5
"I would venture to say the majority of government workers who just can't financially survive this shut-down likely have been poorly managing their money for years." Yeah, let's avoid the sidetracks and focus on government workers, here. None of them are poorly paid. Last study I saw said something like 116% of equivalent private-sector jobs. Maybe I should go find that... ETA: Here's the chart from the CBO. Only professional/doctorate degrees do better in the private sector, and that 116% looks low. Given the egalitarian trends in government, all three of those differences make perfect sense. The income range is being flattened compared to the private sector.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 14:39:19 GMT -5
Sure, why NOT take a generic average of public sector jobs, and assume that everyone makes that average? There's no reason to consider that while some public sector jobs pay well, others, say, TSA screeners start at 24K a year, and top out at $36K, and that if they make $36K they're probably living in an area like NYC or DC (see my post upthread on what it costs to live in NYC, and extrapolate what that would be like on 36K a year). No, we live in hypothetical political theory world, so there's no need to consider shit like that. Similarly, when we are considering what people make in corporations, we won't consider the workers who make minimum wage. If you factor in the execs earning millions, it all averages out to a pretty good average living! Sure and SOME teachers in some suburban districts make six figures and live in nice houses! So fuck, the ones in NYC public schools making 50K where you're lucky to get a studio apartment for $1600 are clearly rolling in wealth! And if they somehow are struggling on that income because of all their whores and beer, then they should ALL quit and better themselves, because we don't actually need any teachers in NYC! (And clearly the answer isn't to pay them more, because capitalism.) They should all become CEOs!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 14:58:45 GMT -5
Here's what I'll give you. IF someone who is making a good living, who should be able to save, who hasn't done so because they blew their income on whores and beer and Xboxes, and then throws a gofundme, fuck them.
But I think it's ridiculous to assume that's all of the people working for the federal government who aren't getting paid, and ludicrous to deny that many are barely making ends meet despite working a full time job. It shouldn't be hard to understand that people in that particular position are in a bad way if they have a paycheck or several withheld. And that they might not have families to bail them out (since poor people tend to have poor families and friends). Not hard to imagine that some of the gofundme people might be folks who had some other catastrophe that put them further in the hole, even before this hit.
I assume that people with gofundme pages are in that boat. Maybe not all of them are, sure. There are always grifters. But it's really not at all hard to imagine that a pile of federal workers (like, the ones earning 24K, for example) are working paycheck to paycheck.
(C.e., you're always saying you like to think the best of people. But seriously, that only seems to apply to Republican politicians. E.g., it's apparently damn easy for you to with a sweep of your hand dismiss a huge swath of the population as shiftless, lazy, greedy, and spendthrift.)
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Post by robeiae on Jan 17, 2019 15:19:03 GMT -5
It's lovely that some of you have been fortunate enough to take for granted that it's always possible to put a bit away, if you're just willing to tighten the old belt. My own view is that you live on Privilege Ranch and never venture beyond the gates. Frankly, I'm stunned at the lack of empathy here for people who have been horribly deprived of their earnings. I can't see anything wrong with folks needing to pay the rent and feed their families crowd-sourcing that income. Agree with everything Cass has said, while some of the other callous, indifferent, privileged horse-shit made me snort with derision. Lol, especially at "privilege ranch" (a nice turn of the phrase, imo). But with regard to my viewpoint, you're both not getting it. I've lived paycheck to paycheck. I've lived below the poverty line. I've been severely in debt. I've been stressed out worrying how I will pay my bills. I've had to find part time work to make it over the line. I've even had creditors calling me on the phone demanding payment. Certainly, many people have been far worse off then me in regards to all of the above, but that doesn't mean I know nothing about it. And I'm not alone in this regard. Not by a long shot. These are circumstances that most people experience at one point or another in their lifetimes. I have plenty of empathy for people who struggle to get by, to take care of their families. And I have tried to help such people when I thought I could, on numerous occasions (probably not often enough, or as often as many others, to be sure, and probably not to the degree that I could afford, as well, but then I'm not looking for a sainthood). But this isn't about empathy, in my opinion. It's about the professionalization of panhandling by companies like GoFundMe. Not only do I think it's awful that people view this as a legitimate choice to make ends meet, I also think it's awful that a company is profiting/has profited from such practices. Beyond that, there is also the issue of the people who feel compelled to donate, who think they're doing a good thing (though it's not always easy to spot a scammer on GoFundMe). Do you know that GoFundMe accepts major credit cards, as well as PayPal? I would bet that a could chunk of the people donating to these various campaigns--not just the ones here, but all of the others, including the idiotic ones like "Build the Wall" and "Let's buy Twitter"--are in debt, themselves. And here they are, suckered into putting another $20 or $50 on their credit card by the sob stories and the positive reception to this stuff in various fluff pieces. One might say "hey, what's another $20 bucks," right? But if that $20 bucks goes onto a card that isn't getting paid in full at the end of the month, it's gonna turn into more than $20. And Visa is gonna make some extra jingle, as well. In my view, it's a huge racket that exists to separate people from their money, a little at a time, with no actual benefits, aside from the handful--comparatively speaking--of people who start campaigns. And at the same time, it's successfully legitimizing panhandling to an unhelpful degree.
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Post by mikey on Jan 17, 2019 15:44:15 GMT -5
Geeze Rob, you had to go and bring this thread back on topic.
As far as this go fund me thing, I see two hands here. On on hand I agree with you about this being a huge racket. On the other hand, corporations have been "pan-handling" for years, but people chose to call it "charity". Same thing in my view, but a different name.
If it's acceptable for the corps, it's okie dokie for regular people. It's always a role (did I say role? I think I meant roll ((sheep face)) ) of the dice for the giver anyway.
Now, who's going to pay me for my excellent opinion? ((holds out half a hand))
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Post by markesq on Jan 17, 2019 16:15:13 GMT -5
You know, it occurs me that our right-leaning and libertarian-minded members should be defending this practice rather than taking pot shots. I mean, we have private companies (GoFundMe etc) providing a service for a fee, which people can voluntarily use or not (on both ends of the transaction). Capitalism, no? Add to that, if desperate people can rely on this instead of governmental largess, what's not to like?
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Post by robeiae on Jan 17, 2019 16:22:58 GMT -5
Nah. Even if one is a proponent of capitalism/free markets (to whatever extent), it doesn't mean every application of these things is beyond criticism. Because after all, unhappiness/criticism of businesses and their practices can help force them to change and/or shutdown. That's a part of the process, too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 16:59:15 GMT -5
To note, Rob, I'm actually not a big GoFundMe fan myself -- I'm really careful where I donate. I need to be sure the money for what I want it to go for, and that it's not a grifter account. And yeah, there are grifters on GoFundMe.
I also agree that people who aren't desperate -- who have family willing to help, who have some savings, who can feasibly get work -- yeah, sure, do that first. And no, I don't have great sympathy for people who are in a shitty position due to the fact they blow their paycheck on hookers.
But.
Where I differ very much with many in this thread:
(1) Not everyone is in circumstances where it is feasible to save. Whether it is temporarily, due to bad things happening, or just because you're not able to get a decent-paying job, there are people who live paycheck to paycheck and don't have savings, without being spendthrifts. You've (Rob) been there, I've been there.
(2) Not all of those people have family and friends willing and able to help.
(3) It's not necessarily all that easy to run out and get a part-time job on the fly. (or for that matter, get a loan.)
(4) if you're in that position, and your choice is starving, getting evicted, etc. or gofundme...well, I can sympathize, even if I don't love gofundme.
(5) my anger and scorn is directed not at the people in that position, but in our fucked up government that shut down and is withholding their paychecks.
(6) Gofundme is at least voluntary. It's our choice whether to give.
So yeah, it's fucking NUTS that it has come to this, but I think the fucking NUTS part starts way before the Gofundme accounts were set up...
ETA:
And to clarify, Rob -- I know that you did not take the position that "pffft, everyone makes enough money to have savings and no one lives paycheck to paycheck unless they suck with money. However, c.e., Don, and Mikey definitely did take that position. That's what I mean by Privilege Ranch -- it's just fucked up and callous imo to say that only idiots and spendthrifts are unable to save. But yeah, I know that wasn't your point in the thread.
Where I think you take a bit for granted is that everyone in that bad spot has friends and family who can help or can find temporary part-time work. I don't think the first is true and that the latter is necessarily that easy. Would that it were.
And again, it's not that I love GoFundMe accounts, but I can absolutely empathize with the desperation some of these people are feeling, and if they're genuinely in a "shit, I can't pay my kid's medical bills and I'm going to get evicted if I don't get some money right now and holy fuck I have no way to get it" spot, well, yeah. I'm not going to knock them.
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