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Post by robeiae on Jan 27, 2019 14:05:21 GMT -5
It's was all of those things, I think. Here's a typical FB "outrage" post, one shared by many on my feed: www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10219979805631862&set=a.1321753330288&type=3&theaterHere's the same bit on twitter: Supposing that his "Vietnam veteran" status had no impact on the level of outrage and the rapidity of its growth is not defensible. I would bet that if he had been an actual Vietnam vet, but had not been an actual Native American,the argument would be exactly the opposite: that his actual ancestry didn't matter, because he was still an elderly Vietnam vet and those were the things that were causing the outrage.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 14:29:58 GMT -5
Yeah. The media should have gotten it right, to the extent they reported he was in Vietnam. Phillips shouldn't have exaggerated, if he did. I agree with both of those things, with bells on. I don't dispute that.What I'm disputing is that it had much effect on people's reactions, or that it makes any difference at all to the boys' culpability. People were outraged that the teens were mocking a Native American in a racist manner, with mocking faux-"Indian" war chants. The fact that he was elderly made it worse. And sure, the fact that he served his country adds to it, but take that away, and those of us who were angry would still be angry. And in fact, he DID serve his country, just not physically in Vietnam. At best, this is a bay leaf in a stew. Take it out, and it really doesn't make much difference to the vast majority of people eating the stew. It is the equivalent of my "guy gropes a woman on the subway -- media neglects to mention that she's a tax cheat." Sure, she's a less good human being than someone who does not cheat on her taxes, but to people upset over the subway groping, it doesn't matter -- they're upset about the sexual assault. The sexual assault doesn't become okay because she's a tax cheat. Here, people are upset by the racism, and it's still racist whether he was just a Marine or physically in Vietnam. I ask again -- do you think all the people who were/are upset about this would have shrugged and said "fine" if it had merely been reported that he was in the Marine Corps during the Vietnam era rather than specifically deployed in Vietnam? markesq haggis nighttimer -- was Phillips specifically being deployed to Vietnam the key factor for you in why you found the boys' behavior objectionable? Sure wasn't for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 15:12:30 GMT -5
And here -- I'm going to go way out on a limb and make a related point with regard to the MAGA hats.
A couple of you have said that the MAGA hats are the only reason people were upset about the boys' behavior. That's NOT accurate. Give them all Yankees caps, and I'm still going to think the way they acted was racist and terrible, that their chaperones were failures, and (if all other factors were the same), that their school needs to examine the way it deals with things like this.
So no, the MAGA hats are not the reason people were upset. Those of us who are upset would be upset regardless.
But I DO think it's safe to say the MAGA hats added something.
That's because, very unfortunately, MAGA hats have been prominently displayed at far too many events that involved racist behavior or groups of white nationalists, and it's hard to avoid noticing. It's also impossible not to associate the hats with Trump, who, hello, is way on board with birtherism, who says many white nationalists are fine people, who tried to dodge condemning a prominent KKK leader, whose followers include virtually all the white nationalists in the country (that's not to say all his followers are white nationalists, but if you're a white nationalist, odds are you support Trump), who takes migrant kids from their parents and puts them in cages, wants to build giant walls along the border, ban people from Muslim countries, and ban transgender people from the military, who supports people like Steve King and Roy Moore, who advocated the death penalty for the Central Park five after they'd been exonerated, who talks about grabbing women by the pussy....
c.e. and Mikey may not like hearing this. But it is unfortunately a fact: for many of us, a MAGA hat is an instant red flag signaling that the wearer supports a whole pile of things many of us find, yes, deplorable. And by that, I do not mean small government and lower taxes. I mean all of the shit in my paragraph above. Conservatives like George Will or the late John McCain don't wear MAGA hats -- and in fact, a whole pile of them make the same associations I do.
Like I said, I'd regard the boys' behavior as offensive and wrong whatever they were wearing. But the fact that they're wearing MAGA hats -- it's hard for me not to say "Jesus, yet another bunch of people wearing MAGA hats doing racist/bigoted shit." And that in turn adds to the negative impression many of us have of people wearing MAGA hats. Those hats don't say "I'm a conservative" (actually, to me they don't say that even in part--I don't think Trumpism is conservatism). To me (and IMO to many of us) they say "I'm just fine with white nationalists, proud boys, muslim bans, transgender bans, giant border walls, kids in cages, birtherism, 'locker room talk' etc. etc.--in fact, I'm proud of being associated with them."
You think that's unfair? Can you say you have no impression of a crowd of people wearing pink pussy hats? Antifa t-shirts? That if people choosing to wearing that symbol, or some other symbol, behave a certain way, you don't shake your head and think "that's not surprising out of people who choose to wear that symbol?"
To note, I would not make this same association with someone wearing a Mitt Romney 2012, John McCain 2008, or Jeb! 2016 t-shirt.
ETA:
I'll throw this out there, too: a couple of you think those of us who are upset are upset solely because the kids are wearing MAGA hats? I'm gonna flip it on you -- IMO, a lot of people are DEFENDING the kids solely because they are wearing MAGA hats.
Finally, I'll add this: it adds even more to the impression that many of us associate specifically with the MAGA-hat wearing crowd when Trump supporters are at best silent and at worst actively defend or downright cheer on people wearing MAGA hats (or indeed, the president himself) doing awful stuff. Again and again, to many of us, it feels like MAGA equals "I'm good with all that."
Can you say you don't feel the same way if an antifa-t-shirt wearer engages in certain behavior? Bet you can't -- not if you're being honest.
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Post by michaelw on Jan 27, 2019 20:07:35 GMT -5
People were outraged that the teens were mocking a Native American in a racist manner, with mocking faux-"Indian" war chants. I just don't think that's true, by and large. (To be fair, it might be true for a small number of specific people who have always been angered by this sort of thing.) And if it were true, it would be an amazingly fast turnaround by a country with a long history of simply not caring.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 21:03:36 GMT -5
People were outraged that the teens were mocking a Native American in a racist manner, with mocking faux-"Indian" war chants. I just don't think that's true, by and large. (To be fair, it might be true for a small number of specific people who have always been angered by this sort of thing.) And if it were true, it would be an amazingly fast turnaround by a country with a long history of simply not caring. Well, it's sure as hell why I was pissed off. Everyone I know who's pissed off about it says they're pissed off for that reason. All the articles I read by people who were pissed about it were pissed for that reason. Perhaps we're all full of shit or deluding ourselves, but that's why we seem to believe we're pissed off. If you mean a lot of people just don't give a shit about stuff like this and historically have not given a shit about stuff like this, I'm sure you're right. I"m sure many people still don't give a shit whether people do racist faux-Indian chants to mock at Native Americans. That doesn't mean that a lot of us don't find it racist, obnoxious, and upsetting. Just like a lot of white people apparently aren't bothered by blackface, yet a lot of us are. If you mean that whether the guy was deployed in Vietnam vs. merely being in the Marine Corps during the Vietnam era was the decisive factor upon which whether one is pissed off or not turns, I say pfffffffft. ETA: Seriously, a show of hands: how many people truly believe that the Vietnam vet thing was what we lawyer types like to call a "but for" factor -- i.e., that but for some media reporting that Phillips was deployed in Vietnam, no one would have found the kids doing jeering faux-Native War chants at him offensive and racist ?
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Post by michaelw on Jan 27, 2019 21:22:32 GMT -5
If you mean a lot of people just don't give a shit about stuff like this and historically have not given a shit about stuff like this, I'm sure you're right. I"m sure many people still don't give a shit whether people do racist faux-Indian chants to mock at Native Americans. Indeed. Here's a piece, for example, that clearly accepts the premise that the chanting and the tomahawk chops are racist and offensive. But it also gives much, much more context and history. From the article: Of course, the author is actually understating the case, by a lot. It's not just that there are thousands of people doing this. There are millions of people watching this on TV. There's a massive, massive audience, yet hardly anyone seems to really care. But don't get me wrong. If it's true that tons of people have finally realized this stuff is not cool, I'll be happy. I'm just skeptical.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 21:29:09 GMT -5
I think we're safe in saying that the people who are upset about this are the people who realized already that this stuff is not cool. I'll agree with you that this group, unfortunately and obviously, does not include everyone. We're very vocal, though.
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Post by Christine on Jan 27, 2019 21:55:20 GMT -5
Absent the MAGA hats, I think a lot of people would have been a lot more measured in their responses. That a handful of people here or elsewhere would, or claim they would, be just as outraged--and apparently just as okay with the national attention directed toward a 16-year-old kid who was acting stupidly and immaturely, but who didn't hurt anyone, literally or figuratively or obliquely--isn't an indication of anything.
It was the fucking hats, imo. And you all know I can't stand Trump or his hat-wearing followers. But I think it was the hats.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 22:20:35 GMT -5
Since I've said several times I thought the media response was overblown, and condemned the threats, etc. aimed at the kids, if that's directed at me, pfffft.
Also worth noting that the kid in question doxed himself, hired a public relations firm, issued a statement, and far from retiring into private life, went on the Today show and is going to the White House.
And he doesn't think -- still doesn't -- that there was anything problematic in his behavior. A big load of kids, including these kids, have now learned that this kind of stupid, immature, racist behavior is not only fine, but praiseworthy.
I guess you're okay with that. I think it sucks.
ETA:
I'll add this -- at 16, they should fucking know better. They are not 8 year olds.
At what age should one start expecting people to not act like a racist mob?
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Post by Christine on Jan 27, 2019 22:42:24 GMT -5
Since I've said several times I thought the media response was overblown, and condemned the threats, etc. aimed at the kids, if that's directed at me, pfffft. It's not directed at you, insomuch as I think your outrage would be the same, or very nearly so. But, I think the point others are making is that this was bad behavior, but nothing that merited outrage on a national scale. Well, no, HE didn't do those things. The adults in his life did/are doing those things. And Trump. The fuckwad. So yes, as a result of all of this "justifiable" outrage, Trump et al are doubling down and this kid and his peers are getting rather the opposite of the teachable moment they needed. Spare me the bolded, will you? The crux of the matter is that even if/though they should know better, the way the media has handled it, and the way that so much of the outraged, Trump-hating public is okay with the way it's been handled, is troubling. THEY should know better. I think that sucks just as much if not more than the kid's shitty attitude.
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Post by michaelw on Jan 28, 2019 8:14:15 GMT -5
It was the fucking hats, imo. And you all know I can't stand Trump or his hat-wearing followers. But I think it was the hats. We should start calling this incident hat-gate.
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Post by prozyan on Jan 28, 2019 8:23:59 GMT -5
It was the fucking hats, imo. And you all know I can't stand Trump or his hat-wearing followers. But I think it was the hats. We should start calling this incident hat-gate. The incident itself, no. The MSM/fuckingtwitter reaction to it...for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 10:24:05 GMT -5
As a friend of mine just reminded me, this is not a hill worth dying on. Fuck it. I have nothing left to say that I haven't said six times already. Keep your opinion, whatever it may be, and take joy in it.
I'd post on one of the topics I think ARE hills worth dying on, but topics like that get no traction anymore. It's only stuff like this that goes on for pages.
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Post by markesq on Jan 28, 2019 10:28:14 GMT -5
As a friend of mine just reminded me, this is not a hill worth dying on. Fuck it. I have nothing left to say that I haven't said six times already. Keep your opinion, whatever it may be, and take joy in it. I'd post on one of the topics I think ARE hills worth dying on, but topics like that get no traction anymore. It's only stuff like this that goes on for pages.
I know, right? I keep wanting to resurrect the thread you had on the Trump craziness, but who the hell can keep up? Ain't nobody got time for all that...
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Post by nighttimer on Jan 28, 2019 12:24:51 GMT -5
I don't have the time, interest or energy to get all hyped over a bunch of MAGA-wearing morons in a standoff with Indigenous Americans and Black Israelites. Nobody got hurt (except their feelings), nobody got killed and nobody got arrested.
This is the very definition of a Nothingburger. So why is this even a thing? Besides it gives The Usual Suspects to trot out their usual talking points and get all in their feelings. It seems to me that people want to make excuses for Phillips. And considering how this thing started, with death threats, misinformation, and so many acting as if the kids went to Phillips on their own, I don't blame him for hiring a PR firm. Why shouldn't he? Phillips chose to make this a big deal. He chose to wade in, then chose to talk about it, that these boys did this to a Vietnam Vet. (BTW, while I agree his misrepresenting his military career isn't very relevant, why was it okay for everyone to shame the kids for their treatment of a Vietnam Vet when they had noway of knowing that.) They knew he was a older Native American man when they were hooting and hollering and tomahawk-chopping around him. Why is that acceptable behavior to you? Whatever happened to treating an older person with a little respect? how about shaming them for their disrespectful treatment of an elderly man? how about shaming them for their racially taunting a Native American? The Vietnam vet thing was at most a bay leaf in the stew. Take it away, and it is still stew. And he did serve four years in the Marine Corp during the Vietnam era, so, actually, he did serve. ETA: Seriously, you think if Vietnam had been taken out of the equation, and everyone was clear from minute one that the boys had been doing mocking war chants and tomahawk chops and that ridiculous face with someone who was just an elderly Native American former Marine (who hadn't been in the actual country of Vietnam), all of us would have been "oh, fine, then. Carry on. It's not like he was in Vietnam." No. The larger factors were that he's elderly and a Native American. And he did serve. So --WTF? The outrage would have been equal, IMO. Let's set the record straight about Phillips' military service. He did not go TO Vietnam, but technically he is classified as a Vietnam-ERA veteran because the war encompasses his enlistment and service time. I know this because I'm a Vietnam-Era Veteran who was not deployed overseas and never saw combat either. Pretty happy about that too.
Should veterans get preferential treatment because they are veterans? Hell and No, but neither should MAGA gear rocking, blackface wearing, tomahawk chopping, Catholic schoolboys whose March for Life and to Deny Women Their Reproductive Rights who ran smack into the Indigenous People's March receive this "White boys will be White boys" preferential treatment.
If Nathan Phillips isn't a "reliable narrator," you're telling me Nick Sandmann is? The guy with the public relations team and the lawyer issuing statements. More like you, robeiae and Opty simply have a major hard bias against Phillips as you present him as a scheming liar and the lawyered-up Sandmann as a paragon of truth, justice and the American Way. That's a nice smear job you guys got goin' here. Trouble is tearing down Phillips doesn't make Sandmann look any less of the smug and rude little prick he is. Lol, what a ridiculous strawman. I don't think Sandmann is a paragon of anything. I think he's one of the main people in that little pseudo drama who acted poorly (along with some of his classmates). But again, nothing all that significant actually happened. Yet now Phillips is milking it for all its worth, trying to play the hero, no doubt buoyed by all of the initial attention wherein he was cast as a hero by the clueless outrage mob on social media, a mob who managed to turn an almost-non-event into a national news story and--possibly--a life-changing event for a number of young people. LOL. It's funny as hell you seem to think you and this board are exempt from being part of that clueless outrage mob. Some of us were calling this supposed "controversy" a big, greasy nothingburger a week ago. Where you been?
I said then nothing all that significant actually happened, but I was right that it gave the Usual Suspects an opportunity to trot out their talking points.
Hopefully this been a life-changing event for a number of young people. Maybe they'll learn how to walk away from a situation with the Black Israelites and defuse it instead of trying to out yell and shout them. When faced with being harassed and heckled by fools, the best approach isn't always to add more foolishness to the proceedings. Pouring gasoline on a fire never puts it out.
Maybe their mommies and daddies will also teach their brats to respect their elders and don't get all up in their faces. BACDAFUCUP!
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