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Post by Christine on Jan 29, 2019 21:41:27 GMT -5
The NY law seems reasonable to me. I imagine people "celebrating" it are celebrating the fact that women are no longer going to be put through a legal ringer on top of the already terrible situation of needing an abortion past 24 weeks, due to their life/health issues or giving birth to a suffering and dying or dead baby.
I actually understand the shock and disgust at Roe v. Wade more than I understand the shock and disgust over this NY law. Under Roe v. Wade, you don't need ANY reason to get an abortion. The NY law provides parameters.
The only thing I can figure is opponents of the law really do have some bizarre idea that women will be lining up to get late-term abortions now, "for funsies" or whatever, like Cass mentioned. We're firmly in conspiracy territory there.
I mean, come on. People just don't fake health issues so they can terminate at 38 weeks because... I can't even come up with a non-ridiculous scenario. If this is even a thing, it's going to be incredibly rare. The benefit of the law for women (also human beings, btw), as was stated clearly in the OP with an example, far outweighs the bizarre idea that now all these abortions of healthy babies will happen and the Dems are totally stoked about it.
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Post by Christine on Jan 29, 2019 21:57:56 GMT -5
1. I also wish there were no abortions. I don't really think anyone is pro-abortion, I mean really? 2. I actually have more respect for the all-or-nothing position. Well, nothing position: abortion is murder from day one, and it should be outlawed. Why? Because that argument is consistent, at least. Harsh, but consistent. But the thing is, I can't get on board with forcing a woman to bring a child into this world when it's the product of rape. How barbaric is that?? And the thing is, once you make an exception for something like rape, it becomes a matter of line drawing. I also wish there were no abortions. My personal change of heart on the matter was due to the argument of bodily autonomy. Each of us has a right to it. We cannot be forced to give blood, or an organ, even to our own born children, even after we are dead. It's not a moral argument; it's a legal argument. The government makes laws, not moral pronouncements. From a moral standpoint (as NT and Cass and many others over several decades have already pointed out) if one wants fewer abortions, one should promote more access to birth control and sex education, and more assistance for families. This is the ultimate hypocrisy of the modern-day Christian Conservative.
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Post by nighttimer on Jan 29, 2019 23:38:36 GMT -5
I saw a Tweet yesterday where a woman who had an abortion spoke positively about the law and insisted that her abortion was NORMAL. And yes she wrote “normal” in all caps.um...NO. It’s NOT normal to have an abortion. Morally and statistically it is NOT NORMAL. But celebrations like New york’s Are trying to make it seem normal.
Ugh. So much for "other stuff." Fine. I'll play along. For a while at least.
If an abortion is a medically supervised procedure performed by a trained, board-certified physician why isn't it NORMAL? Are breast implants? Are penile pumps? Are butt injections? Are collagen plumped-up lips?
Who gets to decide what is NOT NORMAL? The Pope? The President? The conservative male majority of the Supreme Court? You?
My wife had an abortion when she was younger than my daughter is now. It wasn't easy for her, she didn't enjoy it, and to this day she feels a twinge of guilt over it. My daughter doesn't want an abortion, but if one day she chose to terminate a pregnancy you know whose business it would be? Maybe her husband or significant other, but primarily hers and her physician. That's whose business it would be.
Not The Pope. Not the President of the United States. Not the conservative male majority of the Supreme Court. Not you or anybody else. In fact, how is any woman's reproductive choices any business of yours?
1. I also wish there were no abortions. I don't really think anyone is pro-abortion, I mean really? 2. I actually have more respect for the all-or-nothing position. Well, nothing position: abortion is murder from day one, and it should be outlawed. Why? Because that argument is consistent, at least. Harsh, but consistent. But the thing is, I can't get on board with forcing a woman to bring a child into this world when it's the product of rape. How barbaric is that?? And the thing is, once you make an exception for something like rape, it becomes a matter of line drawing. I don't like all-or-nothing-at-all positions. I don't like absolutes and I really don't like absolutes when we're talking about a woman's body and what the State's interest in controlling her body. There should be lines. There should be lines that are drawn to protect women from butchers like Kermit Gosnell as well as murderers like The Army of God. Lines that are reasonable in how they are drawn are fine. Safe and legal abortions should be be preferable from unsafe and illegal abortions.
The fact remains abortion has always been with us and likely always will be. All the laws in the world will not change this. It will just make this country that much closer to becoming China where the government regulates reproduction and who gets to and who doesn't and how many.
nighttimer, forgive me I've got a ton of stuff to do today, and I already spent a lot of time on here. Would love to discuss Brokaw more tomorrow. And yeah, most people are very dug in on the abortion issue, I agree. But for younger folks who haven't formed a strong opinion yet on the matter, I hate them seeing the celebration that just occurred in New York. I think it sends a terrible message. Mark, I just saw you on the video! Hi! I'm sorry you had a tough night. That officer to the left of you was falling asleep while standing up, LOL. At least you kept your eyes open. I agree with a lot of your last post. Unfortunately, there are plenty of vocal people who are pro-abortion. And that celebration we saw in New York illustrates that. But I understand your position. Cassandra, regarding reality, I think there must be a better way to address society's unwanted pregnancies than a vague "health" disclaimer that allows unrestricted abortion up to birth. ( The majority of women who have abortions were not using birth control.) And there CERTAINLY could have been a better way to present this law than cheering and lighting up buildings to celebrate. Hello? Citation?
What is missing in these discussions is what is always missing from these discussions. This is a matter of freedom and who has it, who gives it, who can limit it and who can take it away. If women aren't allowed to control their bodies someone else is going to. The thing is not all babies are bundle of joys and gifts from God. Some babies are unloved, unwanted and doomed to unhappy lives. Which is why government builds more prisons than daycare centers.
And y'know something? When it comes to abortion, race matters. Going back to the author's point about Serena Williams nearly dying giving birth, if the White conservatives who see abortion as evil, gave so much as even one damn about the sky-high infant mortality rates of Black women as much as they are worried about not being able to preserve their way of life " with someone else's babies," it might not be so dangerous to be Black, female and pregnant in America. But they don't give a damn and it is. Bringing unwanted and unloved babies into a world where they are predestined to a life of misery, cruelty, poverty, dependency, and criminality is the real evil. Chew on that meat and don't spit it out. Swallow it.
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Post by prozyan on Jan 30, 2019 12:35:34 GMT -5
Abortion. I tend to stay out of this topic for a simple reason...It has nothing to do with me. I will never have an abortion. I will never want an abortion. I will never need an abortion.
I have my personal beliefs: I believe life begins at conception. I believe - from the admittedly easy position of never having to face this - that I would not have an abortion except under the most dire of circumstances. I believe that aborting a healthy, viable fetus is murder. But, as I said, those are MY PERSONAL beliefs. I also personally believe I have zero right to force my PERSONAL beliefs onto another person.
I don't think anyone should be shamed for having an abortion. Its their body, their life, their personal belief system and their guilt or complacency they have to deal with. I am very much a live and let live person and I wish more people would follow that philosophy.
I have a good friend. Actually more my wife's good friend, but we get along fine. She is rabidly pro-choice. Meaning that she finds my beliefs a personal attack on her, despite the fact that while I am PERSONALLY pro-life, I accept pro-choice for the public. There are too many people that are rabidly on one side or the other for anything meaningful to be accomplished.
It gets lost in the dogma of the debate that the vast, vast majority of people would agree that abortion should be a last resort and not a point of pride. Birth control, adoption, etc should all be easily available and viable options. But at the end of the day it comes down to a personal choice.
At the end of the day, I don't think abortions should be something a woman is shamed over UNLESS they are using it as a form of birth control. I hazard to guess there are very, very, VERY few women doing so. On the other hand, I'm not sure abortions are something that should be celebrated, either.
ETA: I do think Roe vs. Wade is in jeopardy. Not because of conservative leanings, but because it is in contrast with the Unborn Victims of Violence Act. Granted in the Federal Law there is an abortion exception written in, but with 38 states also recognizing a violent crime against a pregnant woman is also a crime against a second person (the fetus), I don't think it will be long before a case works its way up the courts on the basis that a fetus at any stage is a person. With the current make-up of the SCOTUS, I can see this being used to overturn the legality of abortion.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 30, 2019 12:46:10 GMT -5
I tend to stay out of this too, as while I think it's okay to believe abortion is morally wrong, when you can't separate the rights of the unborn with the mothers, then it's better to have it legal. 1st trimester, no restriction. (I'm not a fan of minors getting them without an adult there. I couldn't even take my foster son for his wisdom teeth to be removed without his bio dad coming.)
2nd trimester, I think I get a bit more itchy about it, but the 2 are inseparable. (Mother vs unborn babies rights.)
3rd trimester is where I'd draw the line. If an abortion is needed to save a mother, of if we're talking about major birth defects, that's one thing. But my girls were premature. The idea that you can abort them at the age they were (31 weeks). To me, if the baby can be delivered without harm to the mother, and the baby would live, you can terminate the pregnancy and not the baby, you should.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 12:50:46 GMT -5
I don't think anyone celebrates "hurray! abortions! whoopee!" I think Christine has it right -- the "celebration" in New York is that women in Erika's position (see my OP) will not longer be either be subject to criminal proceedings or put through legal and financial hell when they are already in a heartbreaking position.
By the way, it wasn't much of a "celebration" -- I live here and I wasn't even aware of anything except that the law had changed--didn't hear anything about the Empire state building being pink for a night, and I'm still not aware that there was anything other than that done in "celebration" of the law change. To note, the Empire state building is always lit up and they change the colors all the time depending on what's going on. It being lit up pink for a night is not some extraordinary special event. The fact that it went pink for a night was apparently a much bigger deal for pro-life women living thousands of miles away than to pro-choice women living here. An informal survey of my New York friends indicates that they, like me, didn't know anything about any alleged "celebration" and we were all oblivious to the pink lights on the Empire State building.
I quite seriously have a problem with people who would not allow a woman to terminate a pregnancy when her life or health is endangered, or when the fetus isn't viable or would only live a short life in terrible pain. I also think that a woman's doctor, not politicians or random strangers or religious figures, are in the best position to determine when that's the case. Finally, given that few women want to terminate a pregnancy so late, and when they do, it's nearly always for heartbreaking reasons, it's ridiculous to create legal blocks on it based on some hypothetical scenario that some woman somewhere might have a late-term abortion for fun.
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Post by prozyan on Jan 30, 2019 12:55:47 GMT -5
I don't think anyone celebrates "hurray! abortions! whoopee!" I disagree. Certainly not the majority but those types are out there. For what its worth, I wasn't referring to what is going on in New York when I spoke of celebration.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 13:07:31 GMT -5
I don't think anyone celebrates "hurray! abortions! whoopee!" I disagree. Certainly not the majority but those types are out there. For what its worth, I wasn't referring to what is going on in New York when I spoke of celebration. There are also people who go about dressed in animal onesies or wear colanders on their heads. They're rare, very much a fringe, and not at all representative of pro-choice people in general. (Moreover, I think most of that is actually just show to get in the face of hard-core pro-lifers rather than a genuine "whoopee! I love abortions!" No, that doesn't mean I condone it--it's stupid, as are most positions taken to be edgy. But I think the pro-choicers in this thread are much more representative in general.) They are no more representative of pro-choice people than the Westboro Baptists are representative of Christians. ETA: I mean, if we're going to go all "but there really are kooks out there who do X!", I'll note there are also pro-life kooks who bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors who perform abortions. They're out there, but I do not regard them as representative of the pro-choice movement. More typically, people attend peaceful protests and argue about it on message boards.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 13:34:55 GMT -5
For fun, here is the Empire State Building's lighting schedule (somewhat subject to change -- if, e.g., there's a disaster in France, it might be lit up in the French national colors in solidarity). www.esbnyc.com/explore/tower-lights/calendarAs you can see, it changes color schemes constantly based on holidays or current notable events, ranging from major international events to the Westminster Dog Show to the 30th anniversary of The Simpsons. Can't say I even notice or wonder what the color changes are for, except that the building always looks pretty and it's fun that it changes color.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 30, 2019 14:35:45 GMT -5
This is over the line, in my view, and pretty clearly so: www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=95&v=SkTopSKo1xsThis is the governor of Virginia suggesting that infanticide should be an actual legal option. Someone get Kermit Gosnell on the phone, he's gonna want to hear this...
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Post by celawson on Jan 30, 2019 14:46:56 GMT -5
NT - I used this from the National Abortion Federation - Damn I forgot the link. Will add. 5aa1b2xfmfh2e2mk03kk8rsx-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/women_who_have_abortions.pdfIf half report using it IN THE MONTH prior, but of that half, some forgot to use it on the day they conceived, then that's not half. I admit was getting a little heated yesterday in my posting, and I admit I worded that too strongly and should have cited it or said "about half". Which is still a sad statistic. Cassandra - here's a video of the "celebrating". Very wide smiles throughout the signing, people look utterly joyful, very loud cheers after the signing. I don't know what else you want to call it besides celebrating. I think it should have been a somber and serious occasion. It seemed more like a party. nypost.com/2019/01/22/andrew-cuomo-signs-bill-updating-new-yorks-abortion-law/Also, here's a video clip from the governor of Virginia you all might be interested in: www.nationalreview.com/corner/virginia-governor-defends-letting-infants-die/It's the governor of Virginia defending a bill which would allow abortion even while the mother is in labor, and even for mental health reasons. And he goes even further, if the baby is born alive. Even at that point, the baby would only be resuscitated if the mother wants it resuscitated. We are well into the slippery slope here, folks. That's what happens when fetuses are considered clumps of cells, and people whoop and cheer for late term abortions. I just got 3 new consults. Sorry, but I have to head into the hospital.
EDITED TO ADD: I just saw Robo's post, and I agree with him and had already put that in my post now. If you all, intelligent people every one of you, can't see how this attitude toward unborn life creeps into other aspects of our society - euthanasia and infanticide are only 2 examples, then I really don't know what else to say.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 14:53:41 GMT -5
This is over the line, in my view, and pretty clearly so: www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=95&v=SkTopSKo1xsThis is the governor of Virginia suggesting that infanticide should be an actual legal option. Someone get Kermit Gosnell on the phone, he's gonna want to hear this... I'd agree that favoring infanticide is certainly an entirely different kettle of fish, and one I wouldn't support (and I'm confident most people wouldn't support). Unless this has somehow been taken wildly out of context in a way I can't immediately imagine, this is an extreme and IMO indefensible position. It's also not at all comparable to Erika's situation, nor can I see how the New York law would allow it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 14:59:08 GMT -5
NT - I used this from the National Abortion Federation - Damn I forgot the link. Will add. If half report using it IN THE MONTH prior, but of that half, some forgot to use it on the day they conceived, then that's not half. I admit was getting a little heated yesterday in my posting, and I admit I worded that too strongly and should have cited it or said "about half". Which is still a sad statistic. Cassandra - here's a video of the "celebrating". Very wide smiles throughout the signing, people look utterly joyful, very loud cheers after the signing. I don't know what else you want to call it besides celebrating. I think it should have been a somber and serious occasion. It seemed more like a party. nypost.com/2019/01/22/andrew-cuomo-signs-bill-updating-new-yorks-abortion-law/Also, here's a video clip from the governor of Virginia you all might be interested in: www.nationalreview.com/corner/virginia-governor-defends-letting-infants-die/It's the governor of Virginia defending a bill which would allow abortion even while the mother is in labor, and even for mental health reasons. And he goes even further, if the baby is born alive. Even at that point, the baby would only be resuscitated if the mother wants it resuscitated. We are well into the slippery slope here, folks. That's what happens when fetuses are considered clumps of cells, and people whoop and cheer for late term abortions. I just got 3 new consults. Sorry, but I have to head into the hospital.
EDITED TO ADD: I just saw Robo's post, and I agree with him and had already put that in my post now. If you all, intelligent people every one of you, can't see how this attitude toward unborn life creeps into other aspects of our society - euthanasia and infanticide are only 2 examples, then I really don't know what else to say.
Gee, this is reminding me of how I saw jeering and mocking, and you saw kids doing school cheers...how I see an idiot lying through his ass, enacting disastrous policies, and playing into the hands of dictators and white supremacists, and you see a fine president enacting wise conservative policies... If I were a woman who'd been in Erika's position, or knew someone who had, or worked with women who had, I think I'd also be smiling that no future women in New York would have to go through such a thing again. You know what? I wasn't smiling before, but I'm smiling now, at just that thought. But as I just said, infanticide is something entirely different than the New York law and don't even start to argue "slippery slope" -- as Mark noted above, the law is all about drawing a line somewhere, and there's a pretty clear line between a baby that has already been born alive and a baby that is dead or dying in the womb, and a mother that his alive and has already given birth, and a woman who has not yet given birth and whom giving birth or carrying to term might injure or kill.
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Post by nighttimer on Jan 30, 2019 15:06:05 GMT -5
This is over the line, in my view, and pretty clearly so: www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=95&v=SkTopSKo1xsThis is the governor of Virginia suggesting that infanticide should be an actual legal option. Someone get Kermit Gosnell on the phone, he's gonna want to hear this... Oh, cut the dramatics. You're being hysterical. Where do you get "infanticide" from when the governor says a third-trimester abortion should be made by the mother and more than one physicians based upon the fetus having severe deformities or being non-viable? Governor Northam sounds reasonable and rational to me. You sound like what he means by it being blown out of proportion when you throw out shock-and-awe words like "infanticide."
Or is it you want politicians who are mostly White men like you who aren't bearing children to be calling the shots and not the woman and her doctor(s)?
Conservatives hate meddlesome, intrusive government overreach. Until it comes to controlling a woman's body. Then they're all for it.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 30, 2019 15:09:23 GMT -5
I, for one, don't object to an unlimited window for abortion, right up until birth, provided that doctors are involved and approve the procedure (because that's what an abortion is: a medical procedure). The one caveat to this--for me--is that those abortions which involve the purposeful partial delivery of a living fetus which could be completed with no additional risk, but instead have the doctor kill the fetus before full delivery should be seen as wrong, as malpractice, as violations of the Hippocratic Oath, etc.
That said, I also don't view abortion as some sort of fundamental right. Again, it's a perfectly valid medical procedure that should be allowed/used as necessary on a case-be-case basis (like all other medical procedures).
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