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Post by robeiae on Feb 10, 2019 18:24:31 GMT -5
The hits just keep on coming:
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 10, 2019 18:57:57 GMT -5
As was the case with Kavanaugh, I don't think a full investigation by the FBI into these claims is warranted. The women have said their piece, there's little chance of criminal charges at this point in time, so what't the point? Fairfax isn't going to be exonerated by an investigation, either. And you know that...how? You've been pounding the drum for Fairfax to resign, but he should do based upon unfounded and unproven allegations? So pretty much flip the bird to due process, stop wasting time and Fairfax should fall on his sword for the sake of the Virginia Democratic Party?
I call bullshit on that. The odds are likely Fairfax will quit and especially if more accusers come forth, but until then he should stay right where he's at.
Meanwhile, there is nothing---literally nothing---Trump can't make worse by opening his big fat yap or babbling incoherently on Twitter.
This is the guy who took out full-page ads demanding the return of the death penalty for the Central Park Five and even when they were exonerated he still insisted they were guilty because how could Donald John Trump possibly be wrong. This is the guy who refuses to reject the racists that make up a large portion of his brain-dead base. This is the guy who looks at Charlottesville where neo-Nazis, Klansmen and other two-legged filth murdered an innocent woman and this asshole says there were good people on BOTH sides.
How the hell would this asshole know what African-Americans are very angry about? He doesn't have any African-Americans in any senior Whitest House positions and only Gentle Ben Carson as the Cabinet shoeshine boy, so who the fuck is gonna tell him jack or shit about what The Blacks are pissed about?
When it was Steve "What's Wrong With White Supremacy" King, one of President Pussygrabber's boys caught with his pee-pee hanging out, when he was asked about it the lying sack of shit said, "I haven’t been following it, I really haven’t been following it.”
Only a fool would say that. Or believe it.
Fuck off, Donald.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 11, 2019 7:53:52 GMT -5
Uh...common sense. Logic. Fairfax admits to a sexual encounter with Tyson, he says it was fully consensual, she says it wasn't. What's there to investigate there? There are no witnesses to the encounter, so there will be no definitive proof, one way or the other. "Pounding the drum," lol. Mostly, I've been relaying new developments and saying that he's in trouble, that he may have to step down. But he's not listening to me, I'm sure. And I'm hardly running petitions or the like. And another lol. Until WHEN? You're making little sense now, "calling bullshit" on what I'm saying, then turning around and saying something not all that different. You're just late to the party. And to be clear here, I do think Fairfax should step down--as I thought with Kavanaugh--because the allegations are quite credible and cast a cloud over him, personally, as well as the office. The man has young children, after all, and I think it goes without saying that having this all happen publicly has to be ridiculously hard for them as well as for his wife. But that is certainly just my point of view. Politically though, I think the smart play is also to step down. Fairfax's career as a politician is gone. He's not rising up to national office, he probably won't be able to get elected as dog catcher in the future. And certainly, the best thing for the Democrats in Va. would be for him to step down; that's pretty obvious, as well. But sure, just as was the case for Kavanaugh--which I already noted--Fairfax doesn't have to step down.
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 11, 2019 10:35:20 GMT -5
Uh...common sense. Logic. Fairfax admits to a sexual encounter with Tyson, he says it was fully consensual, she says it wasn't. What's there to investigate there? There are no witnesses to the encounter, so there will be no definitive proof, one way or the other. "Pounding the drum," lol. Mostly, I've been relaying new developments and saying that he's in trouble, that he may have to step down. But he's not listening to me, I'm sure. And I'm hardly running petitions or the like. And another lol. Until WHEN? You're making little sense now, "calling bullshit" on what I'm saying, then turning around and saying something not all that different. You're just late to the party. First: Common sense isn't. Next, what's there to investigate you ask? Well, if Fairfax is a serial sexual assaulter, that's not worth investigating? Unless there's an investigation, how do you know there are no witnesses? Maybe there was a guest in the room next door or a hotel staffer who heard Vanessa Tyson telling Fairfax to stop or to get away from her. Sure, that's not "definitive proof" but it is indicative that Tyson has some corroborating testimony that she resisted and he persisted.
What I'm saying is very different from what you're saying. I want due process. Not just for Tyson and the other accuser, but for Fairfax too. I believe due process is something Black people rarely receive in America and frankly, I'm also troubled by the timing of these revelations. As another person put it regarding the lid popping off the garbage of Fairfax's past, "Not during his rise, not during his candidacy, not at the election. Immediately after something is found that could take down Northam."
Rape is an underreported crime. Women are victimized by the perpetrator and then again by the legal system. This should be accepted as a given and I do based upon what women who report it go through.
That said, unless I missed something an accusation---no matter how heinous---is not the same thing as proof. Justin Fairfax says he didn't do what he's been accused of doing. He also says time and time again, I'm not resigning. Why? What's he got to gain? Even if he survives this he's damaged goods and his reputation is in tatters. I don't feel sorry for Fairfax. He's played fast and loose with some of the facts as he did with his errant description of how The Washington Post found nothing to the allegations.
That said, Ralph Northam isn't going anywhere. Mark Herring isn't going anywhere. They aren't going anywhere and they admitted to wearing blackface. Justin Fairfax has a Black face and he's denying everything. If an investigation finds nothing is behind the allegations, some will believe the results and some will reject them completely. If an investigation finds something to the allegations, I'll be in the front row of the choir calling for Fairfax's ass to go.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 11, 2019 12:48:51 GMT -5
The interview was interesting. They ask him how he knows he had consent, but later follow up with if they ever said no.
So are the allegation dependent on the idea that they never said no? Or will they try and get Fairfax to prove he never got a yes? (Which is virtually impossible to prove.)
Also this:
That might add some clarity. If he can prove there was interaction between them at a later time, it make her version less reliable.
I agree with NT, there should be an investigation and some sort of due process here. I don't know what that would look like, but Fairfax is owed that much. Of course, this is politics. He can refuse to resign, and Northam might run for re-election with a new Lt. Governor. Or Northam might not run, and Fairfax could run on his own and not be elected because of this. That would depend on who he's running against.
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 11, 2019 14:29:17 GMT -5
I agree with NT, there should be an investigation and some sort of due process here. I don't know what that would look like, but Fairfax is owed that much. Of course, this is politics. He can refuse to resign, and Northam might run for re-election with a new Lt. Governor. Or Northam might not run, and Fairfax could run on his own and not be elected because of this. That would depend on who he's running against. A fun fact about Virginia is the governor and the lt. governor must both be of the same party, but they do not run as a team. They are elected separately. Which is why Fairfax accused Northam of leaking the negative info about him. Thus you can have the top two elected officials be of the same party while having nothing in common besides that. The governor can only serve one four-year term and this gives the incumbent lt. governor a leg up when it comes to moving up to the big chair.
If Northam were to resign or die in office, Fairfax would finish his term and then could run for the office afterward and put together a seven-year term for himself.
Strangely enough, it's a Republican (kinda sort of) who has drawn up the blueprint for surviving a shitstorm of controversy and Northam and Fairfax are following it to a "T." Donald Trump is his name and saying and doing controversial stuff is his game. Standards fall. It's the way of the world.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 12, 2019 9:46:54 GMT -5
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Post by robeiae on Feb 12, 2019 10:01:49 GMT -5
I agree with NT, there should be an investigation and some sort of due process here. I don't know what that would look like, but Fairfax is owed that much. Of course, this is politics. He can refuse to resign, and Northam might run for re-election with a new Lt. Governor. Or Northam might not run, and Fairfax could run on his own and not be elected because of this. That would depend on who he's running against. Well look, the problem with the idea of "due process" and an investigation is that Fairfax isn't being charged with any sort of crime (as was the case for Kavanaugh). If there's going to be some sort of due process and an investigation here, then every single person out there who levels an accusation or is the target of an accusation of this sort deserves the same, no? But again, with respect to Tyson, it's he said/she said. It something that happened in private fifteen years ago. And both parties admit to an encounter, but differ on the specifics. What is there to investigate, really? The possibility of some random factoids that are ultimately inconsequential, yet get used by people to draw conclusions about who is telling the truth? Frankly, that's unfair to both Tyson and Fairfax, in my view.* As I said upthread though, Fairfax doesn't have to step down, anymore than Kavanaugh had to withdraw. My opinion is that holding on makes him look like really bad; it's putting his family through hell, it's undermining his authority, it's hurting his political party, and so on. He's already had a bunch of staffers quit and he's been suspended by his law firm. I think the longer he holds on, the worse he looks. His political career is over, regardless. * I would allow that maybe there needs to be some sort of investigation at Duke, based on Watson's claim that she reported a rape to a dean at the school who apparently wanted her to back off (and she did). But that's more about Duke University than it is about Fairfax. Still, such an investigation into the school may uncover things relevant to Watson's claims about Fairfax.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 12, 2019 10:19:39 GMT -5
I agree with NT, there should be an investigation and some sort of due process here. I don't know what that would look like, but Fairfax is owed that much. Of course, this is politics. He can refuse to resign, and Northam might run for re-election with a new Lt. Governor. Or Northam might not run, and Fairfax could run on his own and not be elected because of this. That would depend on who he's running against. Well look, the problem with the idea of "due process" and an investigation is that Fairfax isn't being charged with any sort of crime (as was the case for Kavanaugh). If there's going to be some sort of due process and an investigation here, then every single person out there who levels an accusation or is the target of an accusation of this sort deserves the same, no? But again, with respect to Tyson, it's he said/she said. It something that happened in private fifteen years ago. And both parties admit to an encounter, but differ on the specifics. What is there to investigate, really? The possibility of some random factoids that are ultimately inconsequential, yet get used by people to draw conclusions about who is telling the truth? Frankly, that's unfair to both Tyson and Fairfax, in my view.* As I said upthread though, Fairfax doesn't have to step down, anymore than Kavanaugh had to withdraw. My opinion is that holding on makes him look like really bad; it's putting his family through hell, it's undermining his authority, it's hurting his political party, and so on. He's already had a bunch of staffers quit and he's been suspended by his law firm. I think the longer he holds on, the worse he looks. His political career is over, regardless. * I would allow that maybe there needs to be some sort of investigation at Duke, based on Watson's claim that she reported a rape to a dean at the school who apparently wanted her to back off (and she did). But that's more about Duke University than it is about Fairfax. Still, such an investigation into the school may uncover things relevant to Watson's claims about Fairfax. But isn't that part of the problem?
You have accusations that are made without a proper forum. She's not under oath, there are no rues of evidence, but Fairfax is expected to resign, losing his political career, suffering the consequences of the accusation, without any real way to defend himself?
Is it bad for the party? Maybe. (Hard to argue yes with Trump surviving.) But is it good for either party to say if someone comes forward with an accusation of sexual misconduct that can't be proved or disproved, you are no longer fit for public office? That's pretty ripe for abuse.
Seems to me he should stay and then if he should run again, the voters decide.
I agree with your point about Duke, but lets remember that it was 20 years ago. Colleges were far more likely to want to bury accusations. And could easily say that if a complaint in and of itself wouldn't equal a crime, it's best to let it go. Nowadays, a black guy accused of raping a white woman wouldn't stand a chance, even if the woman insists there was no rape. Ask Grant Neil.
Scott Greenfield put up a blog post on the Duke angle.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 12, 2019 10:35:42 GMT -5
Well, I think you're underselling the specifics here. Tyson's accusation is akin to Ford's in my view: it seems quite credible. That's no small thing when it comes to these sorts of accusations. There's no clear political angle--she's no Repub/conservative--and there's also no doubt that a sexual encounter occurred between the two.
Then there's simply the reality of the current climate. Perhaps if it was a different time, prior to #metoo and the like, there'd be less pressure on Fairfax. But it is what it is right now.
And sure, he can stay and let the voters decide. But again, his staff is quiting on him, he's been suspended from his firm (Lt. Governors in Virginia make like $37,000 per year; it's considered a part-time gig), and members of his own party are calling for him to step down. What's the upside to holding on for him? Is it better for him, for his family, for his career? I don't think so.
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Post by Optimus on Feb 13, 2019 16:51:38 GMT -5
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 13, 2019 17:11:41 GMT -5
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Post by robeiae on Feb 13, 2019 17:44:40 GMT -5
I saw that, too. Seems like she's a bit of a loose cannon, and I think it's fair to note this history, to be sure,
Maybe she has always been that way...or maybe getting raped twice in college effected her in some ways. Who can say? But as I noted upthread, I think Duke is investigating some of her claims--since it involved a dean of the school--so we might know more about her credibility in the near future. But we still know that she's been claiming Fairfax raped her since before this all broke nationally.
I'm curious, though, what you actually think. Do you believe Tyson? Do you believe Watson? If yes to either or both, do you still think Fairfax should stick it out? Because if I recall correctly--and I do--you said you thought Ford was credible, that Kavanaugh was making excuses, and that the accusation should have been enough of reason to keep Kavanaugh off of the Court (which is pretty much what I said, as well). So, why are the standards apparently different, now? Or is it just that Fairfax's gig isn't as important?
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 14, 2019 12:22:57 GMT -5
I saw that, too. Seems like she's a bit of a loose cannon, and I think it's fair to note this history, to be sure, Maybe she has always been that way...or maybe getting raped twice in college effected her in some ways. Who can say? But as I noted upthread, I think Duke is investigating some of her claims--since it involved a dean of the school--so we might know more about her credibility in the near future. But we still know that she's been claiming Fairfax raped her since before this all broke nationally. I'm curious, though, what you actually think. Do you believe Tyson? Do you believe Watson? If yes to either or both, do you still think Fairfax should stick it out? Because if I recall correctly--and I do--you said you thought Ford was credible, that Kavanaugh was making excuses, and that the accusation should have been enough of reason to keep Kavanaugh off of the Court (which is pretty much what I said, as well). So, why are the standards apparently different, now? Or is it just that Fairfax's gig isn't as important? The fact that she has 2 accusations coming to light now might be another issue.
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 14, 2019 18:11:53 GMT -5
I saw that, too. Seems like she's a bit of a loose cannon, and I think it's fair to note this history, to be sure, Maybe she has always been that way...or maybe getting raped twice in college effected her in some ways. Who can say? But as I noted upthread, I think Duke is investigating some of her claims--since it involved a dean of the school--so we might know more about her credibility in the near future. But we still know that she's been claiming Fairfax raped her since before this all broke nationally. I'm curious, though, what you actually think. Do you believe Tyson? Do you believe Watson? If yes to either or both, do you still think Fairfax should stick it out? Because if I recall correctly--and I do--you said you thought Ford was credible, that Kavanaugh was making excuses, and that the accusation should have been enough of reason to keep Kavanaugh off of the Court (which is pretty much what I said, as well). So, why are the standards apparently different, now? Or is it just that Fairfax's gig isn't as important? No. Not at all. Though the impact the Lieutenant Governor of Virginia has on the nation's rule of law is pretty much zero when weighed against the power bestowed a junior Supreme Court justice. What Justin Fairfax has is largely a ceremonial position which isn't even a full-time job. Kavanaugh has the capacity to make life much easier of muc tougher on countless millions of American citizens with his one vote. In terms of the power dynamic, it's not in the same ballpark. It's not even in the same reality. The power dynamic is unequal and the playing field is not now, nor has it ever been level for Black politicians and White politicians and only a fool would say that it is. There have been many thieves, con men and freaks who have exploited their race from Marion Berry, Kwame Kilpatrick, Mel Watt, Alcee Hastings, William Jefferson, and Ray Nagin to name but a few crooks of color who were working a corrupt hustle. But those guys are small fry. Little grifters doing a little grifting to line their pockets mostly. That's vastly different from White politicians who steal elections, collude with foreign powers and cause Constitutional crises. For the record, I find Valerie Tyson more believable than Meredith Watson. Probably for many of the reasons you found Christine Ford more believable than Julie Swetnick. One seems honestly anguished and the other seems slightly opportunistic. Time will tell, but it doesn't matter who I believe. What I do believe is Justin Fairfax should not resign based upon what talking heads on TV say, the hysteria of the crowd, or because Dems are so comfortable cutting and running at the first sign of a tarnish on one of their angel's halo while Republicans play hardball and back their rogues until the last vote is counted. Because if Justin Fairfax has been accused by two women of sexual assault and denied it loudly and long and refuses to resign while Donald Trump has been accused by 17 women of sexual assault and denies it loudly and long and also refuses to own to anything happening at all and he refuses to resign, I ask you as you asked me: So, why are the standards apparently different, now? Or is it just that Trump and Kavanaugh's gigs isn't as important? We all know the positions held by Trump and Kavanaugh are vastly more important than Fairfax's gig, but I am not seeing the same zealous enthusiasm from you demanding those two hang it up and go away as you are banging the drum for Fairfax's exit. It doesn't seem as though you're holding them accountable to the same standard you insist I should be holding Justin Fairfax to be intellectually consistent.
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