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Post by markesq on Feb 14, 2019 19:25:34 GMT -5
I've struggled about whether to post on this, since it seems so obvious to me. But this is the smartest group of people I hang out with, pretty much, so maybe you can think of something I'm missing.
My question:
Is there an credible argument that there is a national emergency at the US / Mexico border?
This seems like such a losing strategy, such a poor argument factually and legally, that I'm shocked senior members of Congress are supporting it. I mean, I don't expect the president to understand what a dumbass thing this is, but smart (I think?!) and savvy (surely?!) people are backing the idea.
Not to mention, of course, the slippery slope should it actually pass legal muster.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 14, 2019 21:29:23 GMT -5
Is there an credible argument that there is a national emergency at the US / Mexico border? No. But then, credible arguments have never a requirement for politicians pursuing massive arbitrary policy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 8:47:16 GMT -5
No, there is no credible argument. It's a terrible thing in itself and a horrible precedent to set.
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Post by Don on Feb 15, 2019 9:13:10 GMT -5
I remember pointing out elsewhere some time ago that reining in executive power while Obama was still president might be a worthwhile goal, yaknow, just in case the next guy wasn't as popular with those who were happy to see Obama pushing the limits. The argument fell on deaf ears. Pointing that out after the 2016 election made me persona non grata.
Can y'all hear me now?
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Post by robeiae on Feb 15, 2019 9:41:16 GMT -5
It goes back farther than that. Bush was accused--and fairly so, to some extent, imo--of having an "imperial presidency," as well (especially when it came to "security" and surveillance). Trump isn't setting up a new precedent, he's merely following the ones already in place.
He's still in the wrong, though.
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Post by Don on Feb 15, 2019 10:58:58 GMT -5
It goes back farther than that. Bush was accused--and fairly so, to some extent, imo--of having an "imperial presidency," as well (especially when it came to "security" and surveillance). Trump isn't setting up a new precedent, he's merely following the ones already in place. He's still in the wrong, though. Some say it started with FDR, others, Woody Wilson. I'm of the George Washington school, myself.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 15, 2019 11:19:50 GMT -5
It goes back farther than that. Bush was accused--and fairly so, to some extent, imo--of having an "imperial presidency," as well (especially when it came to "security" and surveillance). Trump isn't setting up a new precedent, he's merely following the ones already in place. He's still in the wrong, though. Some say it started with FDR, others, Woody Wilson. I'm of the George Washington school, myself. As in you went to school with George Washington? I knew you were older, but geese.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 13:44:22 GMT -5
I subscribe to both Stand Up Republic (started by conservatives) and Move On (liberal). Both have sent out bulletins condemning this action.
Let's put it this way -- if you think this is just fine, you are either hopelessly naive and gullible, or so biased and partisan you're incapable of acknowledging when your own side has committed a bigly transgression.
Don't take my comparative silence recently to mean that I think things are okay. I've just been extremely busy. In fact, I'm worried as fucking hell.
Y'all aren't wrong that previous administrations have been gradually expanding executive power, and I have always agreed with you that this wasn't a good thing. However, in fairness to previous administrations, Trump is way outstripping them -- and for stuff that is at best unnecessary and at worst downright dangerous and harmful.
Also, quite frankly at this point I condemn Mitch McConnell even more than I do Trump. Trump is a giant malignant toddler who doesn't understand or care about our system of government and our country's values and welfare. McConnell (and Graham and others) know better -- and yet are willing to sell us all out.
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Post by mikey on Feb 15, 2019 13:56:04 GMT -5
Things are getting a little confusing in here. Is the discussion about declaring a national emergency? Or is it about Presidential executive orders? I don't believe these things are the same thing.
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Post by Don on Feb 15, 2019 14:49:26 GMT -5
However, they do both fall under the general topic of expansion of presidential power.
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Post by markesq on Feb 15, 2019 14:55:01 GMT -5
I agree with Cass (shocker), and I don't see this as equivalent to what previous presidents have done. It's more brazen in style and scope, and absolutely McConnell and those other republican rubes should be taking a stand for the rule of law, not just for "winning."
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 15, 2019 15:35:58 GMT -5
Things are getting a little confusing in here. Is the discussion about declaring a national emergency? Or is it about Presidential executive orders? I don't believe these things are the same thing. Yeah, they kinda are. Both are considered ways for presidents to make an end run around a Congress that they can't or won't negotiate with to get what they want.
Somebody said something similar about something sometime.
Oh, and the thing about this "national emergency?" It's bullshit. Everyone knows it's bullshit and why does everyone know it's bullshit? Because even Trump knows there's no emergency at the border and he didn't need to call a national emergency at all.
"I could do the wall over a longer period of time. I didn’t need to do this. But I’d rather do it much faster. And I don’t have to do it for the election. I’ve already done a lot of wall for the election. 2020. And the only reason we’re up here talking about this is because of the election—because they want to try to win an election, which it looks like they’re not going to be able to do.”
I have a feeling that's a sentence which will be repeated in federal courtrooms all across the country. The stupid lying asshole.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 15, 2019 15:42:01 GMT -5
I'm at work so I didn't see the speech, but I saw some commenters on twitter, including a few people who are republican and conservative, and they were like, 'shut up, just please shut up. This is a national embarrassment. You're making it worse.'
Sounds like a shit show
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 15:57:36 GMT -5
I'm at work so I didn't see the speech, but I saw some commenters on twitter, including a few people who are republican and conservative, and they were like, 'shut up, just please shut up. This is a national embarrassment. You're making it worse.' Sounds like a shit show It is. There's a stark and ever-widening gap between Republican/conservatives who agree we have a shit show on our hands (both with this situation and in general), and those who think "it's fine!" or "it's awesome!" I know there are divides among Democrats/liberals, too, but the NeverTrump vs. Trump gap among conservatives seems to me much larger. It gives me a bit of whiplash -- I can still follow and engage with the former as much (or more) as I ever did, but I don't even know what to say to the latter anymore. The gap is just too huge. They're living in one world, am I'm living in another.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 15, 2019 20:18:35 GMT -5
I don't know how any of you can think this isn't a national emergency. Not when our dear president right now is taking shelter in a safe bunker (Country club) and meeting with his highest ranking generals (Golf buddies) to discuss strategies. (Which putter to use.)
I mean, for reals people.
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