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Post by Optimus on May 29, 2020 16:14:38 GMT -5
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Post by michaelw on May 29, 2020 17:51:28 GMT -5
"burn it down. fuck property. fuck cops." The Trump tweet is way worse. "fuck property" and "fuck cops" are more expressions of anger than actual threats. "burn it down" is worse, but worse than "When the looting starts, the shooting starts"? Only if one thinks property is more important than human life.
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Post by mikey on May 29, 2020 20:17:00 GMT -5
"My property is worth more than your life" , and "his life is worth more than your property", is the same as it always was. ((Shrug)) I think the issue is much much bigger than "but Trump!"
That Van Jones clip is a bit closer to the head of the nail
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Post by robeiae on May 30, 2020 8:29:09 GMT -5
Yeah, I thought the Van Jones bit was thoughtful, as well.
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Post by robeiae on May 30, 2020 8:40:12 GMT -5
"burn it down. fuck property. fuck cops." The Trump tweet is way worse. "fuck property" and "fuck cops" are more expressions of anger than actual threats. "burn it down" is worse, but worse than "When the looting starts, the shooting starts"? Only if one thinks property is more important than human life. Disagree. In context with "burn it down," both are threats. As to the last, I don't that's a valid conclusion at all, i.e. that people think property is more important (or more valuable) than human life if they strongly oppose the looters, even to the point that they think looters should be shot. And that's because the issue is being wrongly framed as an either-or: either you think human life is the most important/valuable thing, or you think "property" is the most important thing. I can respect human life, every human life, and not want anyone to die or get hurt. But those feelings don't require me to say "well, I'm going to let someone do anything they want to do, if the only way to stop them is through force that may put their life at risk." That is--imo-a stupid standard for society, and one which has been categorically rejected as a matter of course, when it comes to daily life. It's only when there are moments like this where the issue pops up.
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Post by robeiae on May 30, 2020 9:21:10 GMT -5
On a related note, great read: Planet of the Censoring HumansSetting aside the issue of "what qualifies as censorship," the article details a reality: both political sides want to silence critics, and they'll through their supposed ideological principles out of the window to do it.
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Post by michaelw on May 30, 2020 19:36:22 GMT -5
Disagree. In context with "burn it down," both are threats. Really, I'm not sure "burn it down" is even that much of a threat, per se. Could also be read as more of a show of solidarity. Perhaps. But it does seem like an awful lot of people out there right now think the property damage is the larger issue here, larger even than George Floyd. So OK, maybe one can think a Target store is worth shooting someone for. Not sure if I agree, but at least there's a crime happening in the moment. But that wouldn't apply to George Floyd, I don't think. Floyd did absolutely nothing worth being murdered over. Yet, I'm seeing people on social media who acknowledge that to be the case, and yet still spend 90 percent of their energy bemoaning all the property damage. Acting like that's the real tragedy here, and not George Floyd. To be sure, such people aren't callous enough to say "I don't care about human life", and they might even truly believe that they do care about human life as much as they do about property. But I'm not sure they really do, deep down.
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Post by prozyan on May 30, 2020 20:56:48 GMT -5
Really, I'm not sure "burn it down" is even that much of a threat, per se. Could also be read as more of a show of solidarity. With respect....that's quite a stretch.
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Post by michaelw on May 30, 2020 21:30:32 GMT -5
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/threatThreat: "an expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage." I don't know, man. I think one can still argue that it's a repugnant attitude. If someone feels that way, I've got no beef with that. But If I say, "You say that to me again and I'll slap you," that's not really the same as saying, "If he slaps you, I'll cheer him on and feel happy about it."
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Post by michaelw on May 31, 2020 1:03:54 GMT -5
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Post by robeiae on May 31, 2020 8:44:46 GMT -5
Perhaps. But it does seem like an awful lot of people out there right now think the property damage is the larger issue here, larger even than George Floyd. So OK, maybe one can think a Target store is worth shooting someone for. Not sure if I agree, but at least there's a crime happening in the moment. But that wouldn't apply to George Floyd, I don't think. Floyd did absolutely nothing worth being murdered over. Yet, I'm seeing people on social media who acknowledge that to be the case, and yet still spend 90 percent of their energy bemoaning all the property damage. Acting like that's the real tragedy here, and not George Floyd. To be sure, such people aren't callous enough to say "I don't care about human life", and they might even truly believe that they do care about human life as much as they do about property. But I'm not sure they really do, deep down. I think you're wrongly equating widespread rioting, looting, and destruction with simple "property damage." You're also ignoring the accompanying physical assault of other persons that goes along with all of that rioting and looting. True enough, there are police officers doing this in response, but the the rioters and looters are also doing it. Someone was outright murdered in Oakland, in fact (see the Minneapolis thread). As far as I know, he didn't do anything wrong, either. You can't fairly separate the violence from the rioting and looting, when it comes to people upset over the latter two things.
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Post by michaelw on May 31, 2020 10:19:51 GMT -5
I think you're wrongly equating widespread rioting, looting, and destruction with simple "property damage." I don't think so. I can acknowledge that property damage doesn't quite have the same connotations as rioting/looting. But I still don't think those things are as bad, or as long-lasting in their impacts, as a murder. No, I can acknowledge that, too. Physical assault can be pretty bad, by itself. But not as serious as murder. And in some cases, it seems like the police are the ones instigating. (For example, macing people who are behaving non-violently.) Yeah, I saw that. And I agree, didn't seem like he was doing anything wrong. As I said, I think murder is really the worst thing we're seeing here. I dunno. I think it depends. I saw a lot of people pretty upset about the rioting/looting/property damage/whatever you want to call it even before that police officer was gunned down. So I still think there were a lot of people more upset about ultimately non-fatal events than about a murder. And yeah, I agree that physical assaults can and do happen during a riot, as you noted above. But I don't know that that's really the focus, for a lot of people. I'm seeing a lot of tweets, FB comments, etc that seem to be quite upset about property, while leaving the human cost out of the equation.
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Post by markesq on May 31, 2020 11:52:17 GMT -5
Perhaps. But it does seem like an awful lot of people out there right now think the property damage is the larger issue here, larger even than George Floyd. So OK, maybe one can think a Target store is worth shooting someone for. Not sure if I agree, but at least there's a crime happening in the moment. But that wouldn't apply to George Floyd, I don't think. Floyd did absolutely nothing worth being murdered over. Yet, I'm seeing people on social media who acknowledge that to be the case, and yet still spend 90 percent of their energy bemoaning all the property damage. Acting like that's the real tragedy here, and not George Floyd. To be sure, such people aren't callous enough to say "I don't care about human life", and they might even truly believe that they do care about human life as much as they do about property. But I'm not sure they really do, deep down. I think you're wrongly equating widespread rioting, looting, and destruction with simple "property damage." You're also ignoring the accompanying physical assault of other persons that goes along with all of that rioting and looting. True enough, there are police officers doing this in response, but the the rioters and looters are also doing it. Someone was outright murdered in Oakland, in fact (see the Minneapolis thread). As far as I know, he didn't do anything wrong, either. You can't fairly separate the violence from the rioting and looting, when it comes to people upset over the latter two things. Pretty much all the physical assaulting I'm seeing on my Twitter feed is being done by the police. Knocking down an old man with a cane for standing on a street, kicking and macing people who are sitting, for heaven's sake. I'm also seeing protestors protect cops and block people from looting. Y'all know I'm in law enforcement but after what I've seen these last few days, the way the cops have behaved only reinforces why so many are protesting.
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Post by Optimus on May 31, 2020 12:22:50 GMT -5
Why is this an either/or, "fallacy of the excluded middle" scenario for some people?
We're perfectly capable of holding more than one thought in our heads about an issue. So, it's perfectly acceptable to think that Floyd's murder was horrific, disgusting, and this shit needs to end for good and all the racist bullies in the police need to be fired and/or prosecuted nationwide. However, we are also capable of simultaneously (and rightly) thinking that the looting, destruction, and violence being wrought by large groups of garbage dipshits are also wrong, and those people should be stopped/prosecuted.
Murder is wrong. Looting, destruction, and violence in response to murder is also wrong.
These two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
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Post by robeiae on May 31, 2020 12:39:38 GMT -5
I think you're wrongly equating widespread rioting, looting, and destruction with simple "property damage." You're also ignoring the accompanying physical assault of other persons that goes along with all of that rioting and looting. True enough, there are police officers doing this in response, but the the rioters and looters are also doing it. Someone was outright murdered in Oakland, in fact (see the Minneapolis thread). As far as I know, he didn't do anything wrong, either. You can't fairly separate the violence from the rioting and looting, when it comes to people upset over the latter two things. Pretty much all the physical assaulting I'm seeing on my Twitter feed is being done by the police. Knocking down an old man with a cane for standing on a street, kicking and macing people who are sitting, for heaven's sake. I'm also seeing protestors protect cops and block people from looting. Y'all know I'm in law enforcement but after what I've seen these last few days, the way the cops have behaved only reinforces why so many are protesting. I'm seeing plenty of both. Maybe it's a function of who you're following? I can't really say. There's video of cops getting assaulted by rioters, there's video of various individuals getting assaulted by rioters, and there's video of cops assaulting rioters. And yeah, I've seen protesters protecting cops, but usually after other protesters have assaulted those cops.
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