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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 11:27:36 GMT -5
The thing is though, that we as a society have a solid grasp on the fact that killing is wrong. A movie with guns and murder doesn't cancel out that narrative. We also (I think) have a solid grasp on the fact that "real" (/s) rape is wrong. So the scene in Game of Thrones where Ramsey rapes Sansa doesn't make anyone think, hmmm, that looks like a proper way to interact with someone. But then, we have this other narrative going on where the woman sort of wants to be vanquished and the man has to wear down her defenses and she really secretly loves it when he does that. It's like a game of sorts. It's seen as real, not fantasy. It's "romance." On both sides, I think. The part in the article where Wong mentions the girl who says how lame/unsexy it is that some guy asked her if he could kiss her? I had no fewer than ten conversations just like that when I was growing up. OMG, he asked me if he could kiss me... it was so awkward! Nevermind that the guy asks the girl if they can go on a date, asks the girl what she'd like to do on the date, asks the girl if he can pick her up, etc. But suddenly when it comes to sexual activities, it's lame to ask. Because a guy is supposed to intuitively know what the girl wants in this regard. And then add to that, "resistance" on the part of the girl is supposedly part of the game. It's the role of the girl to protest, but she really, secretly wants the guy to vanquish her. Hey, I admit, I learned my "role" from this sort of thing. For a long time, I thought this was just the way it was supposed to be. Am I stupid for having thought this? Everyone around me thought it too. Were we all stupid? Of course, there is such a thing as unlearning things. Thankfully. : ) Of course, you're not stupid, but in fact not all women want the same things or are attracted to the same approach. To be clear, I am NOT saying some women want to be raped! I'm just saying not all of us want a guy to explicitly ask verbal permission for every last little thing. I, hard-ass lawyer that I am, happen to be one of them. Let me explain what I mean, and then you may condemn me. I actually appreciate it when a guy asks me on a date proposing a specific plan as opposed to a "Would you like to go out some time?" "What would you like to do?" "Can I pick you up?" Of course I don't want him to control all the activities on all of our dates. Of course I should be able to propose activities. Of course, if he proposes something, I can counterpropose "actually, I hate Klingon food. How about Indian?" or "it would actually be easier for me to just meet you there." But the whole "he has to ask the woman about every little detail rather than proposing things." Pfft. Of course, I get the same right -- I can propose activities, restaurants, etc. that he can veto. Indeed, I appreciate this approach with friends, too. And as far as kissing and sex goes... obviously, rape and sexual assault are wrong. Obviously, "no" must mean "no." Forcing a kiss or a touch on an unwilling person is assault. And sure, a sudden grab out of nowhere, when no indication has been made that both parties are mutually interested, is a piss-poor idea. Those are, or should be, givens. But I think once you get past that, there is some room for nuance and signalling. Despise me if you must, but I STILL don't like it when a guy asks if he can kiss me. I shall wait for the full horror of that statement to sink in. No, I do not want him to grab me by the hair like a caveman. But I'd much rather he "ask" me by gesture. e.g.: a couple is on a date. They are mutually flirting. Friendly arm, shoulder, back and/or hand touching has occurred, signalling a touch is not utterly unwelcome. Eye contact is made and held, one half of the couple leans in for a kiss. This gives ample opportunity for the other party to say "no, thanks" and/or pull back. I find it works, and IMO it's a shitload sexier than "may I kiss you?" To completely demolish me in your opinion, I shall recount my own favorite "first kiss" story from my personal life: I had been social friends with X for some time. When I met him, he was in the process of getting a divorce (fyi, in New York, it takes a while. You have to be legally separated for at least a year to even file for divorce.) We instantly hit it off. I was quite attracted to him and sensed he was attracted to me, but I wasn't all that sure he was really ready to date anyone seriously (given how much I liked him, I couldn't just have a fling with him). And he was a quiet type -- not a swaggering Mr. Caveman Alpha Male at all -- so he didn't push anything. So we hung out for months as "friends," with this very obvious vibe going between us. One night, we'd been hanging out in my place all evening watching a movie and sharing a bottle of wine with a couple of mutual friends. The friends left; he stayed to watch another movie. He was sitting on the floor by my feet. At some point, he stroked my calf. I did not protest. But he made no further move. I was disappointed, but I wasn't going to push anything either. The movie ended. We made noise about how it was getting late, etc. He got his coat, we went to the door, I opened it, we said goodbye, he turned away. Then suddenly he said, "oh, fuck it," turned around and planted one on me. (Granted, I met him halfway as soon as I realized that's what he was doing. But it happened pretty fast, once it happened.) Despise me if you must, but it was awesome.
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Post by Christine on Dec 29, 2016 12:26:10 GMT -5
I'm definitely not trying to say a first kiss should follow some set plan wherein permission is always asked. Yeah, there are cues and vibes and such. It can be obvious, for sure. But what about the guy (or girl, for that matter) who isn't sure? I'd encourage the asking, versus poo-pooing on it, like my circle of friends did back in the day.
And there are different ways to ask, it doesn't have to be "May I kiss you?" It could be sexy, like: "I really want to kiss you right now..." (Sexy consent: "I really want you to do that, right now.") Or something like that. If one is not sure, I mean.
Also I'll just mention when I think on these issues I do tend to have younger people in mind. Being a mother of three boys, it's more important to me that they "ask" and risk appearing unsexy than not ask and risk becoming gropey.
All that said, it's a totally different thing, what Han Solo did. Leia verbally communicated several different versions of no, in English. Though apparently we are all supposed to realize she meant yes. That's a problem, I think.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 12:55:08 GMT -5
Is this the scene we're talking about?
Taking aside the fact that it's a 70s movie...
First of all, let us keep in mind that as Han knows well, Leia has no problems being assertive. She is a trained Jedi Master who can strangle Jabba the Hutt to death with a chain. If she did not want Han Solo to touch her, she could easily have yanked her hand away, broken his arm, and/or flipped him on his back. They both know this.
She didn't. First, she let him keep her hand, when he took it in both of his. She protests not "I don't want you holding my hand!" but only that her hands were "dirty." She made no real attempt to pull it back. Indeed, if you look, she lets her fingers first rest gently on his chest and then curl around his.
He leaned in slowly for that kiss. She didn't turn her head or yank herself away as he did so. She holds eye contact with him the whole time, keeps her hand in his, lets him get there and when he does, she kissed him back.
I actually don't agree that she was communicating "no." Such protests as she purports to make are incredibly feeble, given her personality, status, and fighting abilities. ("My hands are dirty?" "I happen to like nice men?" keeping in mind just how caustic and aggressive this woman is?)
Moreover, this moment also does not happen in isolation -- there has been a lot between them. The whole audience was waiting for that kiss.
I actually think this isn't too far off from my guy's sudden lunge at the door. Despise me if you must.
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Post by Vince524 on Dec 29, 2016 12:59:57 GMT -5
I so want to contribute more to this conversation, but I'm on my phone only. Still have to add about that gold bikini. It was literally a monster that forced her to wear it, and not only did she still hold her head up high, she ended up killing Jabba with the chain he put on her. You couldn't ask for a stronger statement about strong women.
And yes, she was bad ass. Imperial troopers were afraid of Vader, but she told him off to his face(mask?) and when Luke came in dressed as a Storm Trooper for what she probably thought was another bout of torture, she mocked him. "Aren't you a little short for a Storm Trooper?" And yes, she took command right away and saved their asses. She gave false info when they threatened her home planet and didn't break when she saw it reduced to rubble. She was a general by the beginning of Empire, and didn't panic and run when the Empire invaded.
That's not only the character that young girls grew up with, but young boys who saw past the bikini and saw a woman in charge and standing up to the big bad man in a mask while she was only 19 years old.
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Post by Vince524 on Dec 29, 2016 13:01:03 GMT -5
Cassidy she was many things but never a trained Jedi master
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Post by Christine on Dec 29, 2016 13:15:17 GMT -5
Is this the scene we're talking about? Taking aside the fact that it's a 70s movie... First of all, let us keep in mind that as Hans knows well, Leia has no problems being assertive. She is a trained Jedi Master who can strangle Jabba the Hutt to death with a chain. If she did not want Hans Solo to touch her, she could easily have yanked her hand away, broken his arm, and/or flipped him on his back. They both know this. She didn't. First, she let him keep her hand, when he took it in both of his. She protests not "I don't want you holding my hand!" but only that her hands were "dirty." She made no real attempt to pull it back. Indeed, if you look, she lets her fingers first rest gently on his chest and then curl around his. He leaned in slowly for that kiss. She didn't turn her head or yank herself away as he did so. She holds eye contact with him the whole time, keeps her hand in his, lets him get there and when he does, she kissed him back. I actually don't agree that she was communicating "no." Such protests as she purports to make are incredibly feeble, given her personality, status, and fighting abilities. ("My hands are dirty?" "I happen to like nice men?" keeping in mind just how caustic and aggressive this woman is?) Moreover, this moment also does not happen in isolation -- there has been a lot between them. The whole audience was waiting for that kiss. I actually think this isn't too far off from my guy's sudden lunge at the door. Despise me if you must. Well, again, like I said originally, I don't think that Han Solo actually assaulted Leia. I think the "message" is that the guy has to overcome a woman's protests, etc. He was in her space, he wasn't listening to her words, he was always a smart ass, calling her names she didn't like, and he basically "wore her down." He was acting like... well, like a dick, imo. I've known guys that act like that. Just... yuck. Freeze them in large blocks of metal, please. But, yeah, it was the 70s, and I can also agree that, considering this, Leia was in fact a strong character and had a huge role to play. Sorry, I hadn't remembered a lot of the scenes, it's been 20 years since I've seen them and I only watched the first movie several times. The second and third I saw only once, maybe twice.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 14:00:52 GMT -5
Cassidy she was many things but never a trained Jedi master Ooopsie. I might be getting the films mixed up with the world of the books and the games and such that followed. Somewhere, in something of the expanded Star Wars world, she at least become a Jedi knight, unless I just dreamed it up as part of my "I wanna be Princess Leia" fantasy. (I'm rusty on my lore now, but I've been a geek in my day. Don't even get me started on Star Trek. Let my lasting crush on Captain Kirk speak to that.) In any case, she was certainly a general and a fighter, and showed as much as or more courage and determination than the male characters in the film, IMO. And she strangled Jabba the Hutt with a chain. (I like that scene. Can you tell?) FWIW, one thing that struck me as a kid watching the very first film -- Luke Skywalker, though the same age as Leia, seemed so much younger to me than she did. Even before I knew they were in fact twins, I never saw Luke as a good love interest for her because he seemed too juvenile in comparison.
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Post by Optimus on Dec 29, 2016 14:32:15 GMT -5
The Han Solo/Leia interaction was mentioned in another thread, but I'll leave this take on it here. Note that the piece isn't a criticism of how it was for Han and Leia, it's about how it came across. I can understand that Leia really did want Han and this was all some nuanced game where she was resisting, but she really wanted him, and he was seeing through her game, and taking her, but that's just not how it is in real life. At least, not most of the time. And these misconceptions from a movie are played out in real life, to the detriment of real people. In my opinion and in my experience, anyway. David Wong comes across in this article as an aging, raging metrosexual who hasn't gotten laid enough, and hopes that by admitting his powerlessness over his primitive urges and social conditioning, some women will take pity on him and take him to bed. Not only that, but apparently, in his long life, nobody has pointed out to him that movies are, you know, fantasies, and not prescriptions for living in the real world. FFS, people go around hosing each other with automatic weapons in the movies, but nobody takes that as appropriate behavior in society because they saw it on the big screen. And I'd bet big money that he's also in the "violent video games don't make people violent" camp. Yet apparently, sexual misconduct on the screen makes men into sexual predators. W.T.F.? There's a huge logical disconnect there. Not to mention that all through the article he's denying man's (and by extension, his own) agency, and he wears his collectivist attitude toward his whole gender right there on his sleeve. "Lots of guys do this and that and some other terrible thing, therefore all guys are predators." And it's all anecdotal, with not one shred of data to back it up. "I can't control myself at the sight of a bikini. It makes me want to furiously masturbate or rape somebody. And it's all the fault of conditioning that I have very little real control over." "Men can't help themselves because that's what they learned?" Srsly? Bullshit. A lot of his articles are like that. I subscribe to Cracked because some of their articles are good and funny, but some are also total shit (especially when they try to tackle/explain science and politics). He's odd in that he seems to lean more toward the overly apologetic SJW side of issues, but then he also writes articles like this one, about rural white people who voted for Trump, that make it seem like he almost has the capacity to break out of the echo-chamber. He seems to try to play both sides in sometimes contradictory ways. Then again, he's a "comedy writer" who tries to infuse dick and fart jokes into every column, so I'm not exactly expecting insightful commentary from him.
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Post by Vince524 on Dec 29, 2016 15:34:55 GMT -5
Cassidy she was many things but never a trained Jedi master Ooopsie. I might be getting the films mixed up with the world of the books and the games and such that followed. Somewhere, in something of the expanded Star Wars world, she at least become a Jedi knight, unless I just dreamed it up as part of my "I wanna be Princess Leia" fantasy. (I'm rusty on my lore now, but I've been a geek in my day. Don't even get me started on Star Trek. Let my lasting crush on Captain Kirk speak to that.) In any case, she was certainly a general and a fighter, and showed as much as or more courage and determination than the male characters in the film, IMO. And she strangled Jabba the Hutt with a chain. (I like that scene. Can you tell?) FWIW, one thing that struck me as a kid watching the very first film -- Luke Skywalker, though the same age as Leia, seemed so much younger to me than she did. Even before I knew they were in fact twins, I never saw Luke as a good love interest for her because he seemed too juvenile in comparison. I read some of the novels, and from what I remember I think she did train as a Jedi. In the novels, she had 3 children with Han. A boy Jacen, a girl Jaina who were twins, and a boy named Anakan. I stopped reading when Anakan was killed at 16. It just upset me. Also Jacen became a Sith and killed Luke's wife Mara. Jaina is still a Jedi however. All of that is now not cannon thanks to The Force Awakens.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 15:43:03 GMT -5
I knew I was getting it from somewhere.
*relinquishes nerd crown and hands it to Vince*
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Post by Amadan on Dec 30, 2016 14:00:15 GMT -5
Well, again, like I said originally, I don't think that Han Solo actually assaulted Leia. I think the "message" is that the guy has to overcome a woman's protests, etc. He was in her space, he wasn't listening to her words, he was always a smart ass, calling her names she didn't like, and he basically "wore her down." He was acting like... well, like a dick, imo. I've known guys that act like that. Just... yuck. Freeze them in large blocks of metal, please. Let me say this very carefully - Sometimes women do want to be "worn down." That does not mean guys should go around grabbing women and kissing them regardless of their feelings on the matter, or that a woman thus grabbed is going to fall in love with any guy who takes it upon himself to do that. But the Han/Leia romance is, no matter how much you may hate it, patterned on a story as old as time. The woman who has feelings for an "inappropriate" man and they both know it, and it's not in his nature to do the formal courtship thing and it's not in hers to go after him herself. Therein results a very delicate dance in which misunderstandings and disasters may befall, and yes, in worst case, sexual assault. So I get why it's problematic. But recognizing that it is problematic does not make it a thing that doesn't actually happen in this world.
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Post by Christine on Dec 30, 2016 18:32:29 GMT -5
I would amend your statement from "sometimes women want to be worn down" to "some women want to be worn down." Because I sure as fuck don't want to be worn down. I know what I want and what I don't want. And sometimes what I want is extremely inappropriate. =D But yes, this can be problematic, if both parties to the "game" are not on the same page. Han and Leia knew what was up (it was, uh, written in the script ). In real life, how certain is the pushy, smart assed guy who keeps interjecting himself into the woman's space? How does he know she wants to be "worn down"? From personal experience, he doesn't, way more often than not. MMV
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2017 21:08:02 GMT -5
I'd agree with Christine's amendment, and amend it a bit more: "sometimes, in some situations, some women want to be worn down."
And yeah, a man had better be sure he's on solid ground there before he crosses the line into harassment.
I have an example on both sides (wouldn't I, though).
Once I had a mutual attraction with a colleague, whom I also liked as a human being. No question, if I didn't work with him, I would have been interested. I admitted as much to him when I turned him down when he asked me out. He pointed out there was no rule against our dating. I said, yeah, but it could get weird. Both of us being who we were, this continued in semi-playful banter style for a month or so until, yeah, he wore me down. And I didn't mind a bit. (Though I was right -- when we eventually broke up, things were weird for a while...)
The pressure was ok, IMO, because he knew I was attracted (since I'd admitted it), and it was probably fairly obvious that while I meant what I said about things potentially getting weird, I was wavering on it. And he knew me well enough to know if it were a "no, never" I would have said as much.
Another time, a guy I wasn't in the least attracted to hounded me with phone calls, lurked where he thought I'd be...yeah, it was stalkerish and most unwelcome, and he just refused to take my "no, I'm not interested" as an answer, though I think my body language and attempts to avoid him should have made it clear I meant it. Also the fact that, as he knew, I already had a boyfriend. Uber creepy. Also delusional.
ETA:
So basically, I don't think a man is well advised to try the Han Solo approach in most instances. He'd better actually know her well enough to be sure he's reading the situation accurately.
Han did, I think.
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Post by Amadan on Jan 1, 2017 21:32:30 GMT -5
Once I had a mutual attraction with a colleague, whom I also liked as a human being. No question, if I didn't work with him, I would have been interested. I admitted as much to him when I turned him down when he asked me out. He pointed out there was no rule against our dating. I said, yeah, but it could get weird. Both of us being who we were, this continued in semi-playful banter style for a month or so until, yeah, he wore me down. And I didn't mind a bit. (Though I was right -- when we eventually broke up, things were weird for a while...) The pressure was ok, IMO, because he knew I was attracted (since I'd admitted it), and it was probably fairly obvious that while I meant what I said about things potentially getting weird, I was wavering on it. And he knew me well enough to know if it were a "no, never" I would have said as much. That's the sort of situation I'm talking about. You both knew there was an attraction there. The "enthusiastic consent/no means no always and forever" advocates would say the moment he asked you again after the first no, he became a harasser. Obviously, that is not the real world. But it does require social awareness and being able to read signals, and since no one is 100% correct all the time, there is always going to be some uncertainty and risk involved. I think the radicals are, with laudable intentions, trying to remove that uncertainty and risk. They believe it is better to simply make it an ironclad rule that you get to ask a woman once, and if she says no, give up forever, than risk someone possibly being harassed or assaulted by someone who thinks "no" means "keep trying." I get that, but I don't think trying to regulate human sexual attraction to that degree is viable or even desirable. Your second example is clearly a guy who was willfully ignoring repeated, obvious negative signals. Going back to the Han/Leia example, it is pretty clear in the context of the story that they both knew damn well that there was an attraction, and that if Han had shrugged and walked away for good the first time Leia shot him down, she'd have been disappointed. I know some people think that's a horrible message - that it's teaching guys they should keep trying after they get rejected. But the key point there is that Han and Leia both knew that she wanted him to keep trying, even though she would never have admitted it. "Oh, you're substituting your judgment for hers. You think Han knew what she wanted better than she did!" No, he knew that there are often multiple levels of communication and what is overtly said is sometimes not the same as what is expressed in other ways. Han and Leia are of course fictional characters, and real-world romances rarely play out exactly like a Hollywood script, but I maintain that that sort of thing does happen in real life. That being said, yes, if you think you are in a situation where she's said "no" but you think she really means "maybe" you'd better be damn sure about that, very confident in your excellent command of picking up on cues, and willing to suffer the consequences if you're wrong. And no, I would not extend that example to anything physical. If she's saying "no" when you lay hands on her, I don't care what sort of signals you think she's "really" sending, you need to back the hell off and let her use her words if she really wants something else. So Han's kiss, like a lot of Hollywood kisses that "overcome" resistance, is certainly problematic and not something I'd recommend someone do in real life. But I'll be honest, I've seen with my own eyes (not done it myself!) those "forced" kisses turning out to be something welcomed. So yeah - there is risk and uncertainty and danger and mixed messages whenever you dance that dance.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2017 21:54:34 GMT -5
Agree.
The reason I found Han's kiss OK was not only because he knew her well, but because he moved into it slowly. He had her hand; she let him keep it, curled her fingers over his. He leaned towards her slowly, his intent clear. She maintained eye contact and didn't turn away, pull back, etc. And she was no easily intimidated woman. As he had reason to know.
If he'd grabbed her out of nowhere while she was working and forced his tongue down her throat -- yeah, bad move. He gave her time to back off. She didn't. She kissed him back.
Similarly, my dude who planted one on me at the door -- I'd not protested or jerked my leg away when he stroked my calf. He knew me -- I'd have told him to stop if I didn't like it. The body language when we lingered at the door, much closer than friends usually do...He knew I was interested. It was more a matter (for both of us) of "should we do this thing?". When he did finally kiss me, he did kinda just grab me, but a lot led up to it.
But note:. In my examples, as with Han and Leia, we weren't strangers. We were people who already knew each other well and had chemistry building for a while.
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