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Post by robeiae on Jan 5, 2017 9:58:38 GMT -5
I've been seeing this claim around the 'net lately, that the last eight years have been scandal-free with regard to the executive branch. Obama made it. So did Valeria Jarett. Now obviously, if I say "that's not true, there have been plenty of scandals involving the admin!," the retort is going to be--from some of those pre-disposed to support Obama--that the so-called scandals under Obama were nothing of the sort, were at best hyped-up and at worst manufactured by the opposition. For point of reference, here's a very incomplete--imo--list of "scandals" at Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States#Executive_BranchIf I was going to list scandals involving the current Admin, I'd certainly include Fast and Furious, Solyndra, Clinton's e-mail server, Benghazi, and the NSA's metadata program as major deals. I wouldn't say that all of these scandals meant that there were people in the Admin who were guilty of crimes or the like, but I think they all meet the bare minimum test of qualifying as a "scandal." Which I guess is my question: when is something a scandal? When is it not? It's a pretty loose term, I think, yet one that gets tossed around in reference to things all of the time. Some other small-scale stuff that I might include: the whole drone assassination deal (fwiw, I side with the Admin on this), the IRS fiasco, some of the wasteful programs under the Recovery Act, things where the Supreme Court smacked down Admin actions, and maybe a few more. Demands on my mood, I guess. I will say that the number of scandals--of things I would call scandals, at any rate--under Obama were far fewer than the number under Bush, though in both cases some were overblown and/or manufactured. But that's part of the issue, too: is a manufactured scandal still a scandal? Thoughts? |
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Post by Amadan on Jan 5, 2017 11:32:45 GMT -5
Usually people are referring to scandals that the POTUS himself, or at least his closest advisors/associates, has been personally involved in. A presidency in which not a single scandal occurs anywhere in the federal government his entire time in office would be pretty remarkable.
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Post by ben on Jan 5, 2017 16:19:16 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 8:15:07 GMT -5
What with the kompromating (can I coin Trumpromating, or has someone done so already) dossier, this thread popped into my head.
We can argue about what is and isn't a scandal politically speaking. But on a personal level, I don't think there's been so much as a discredited rumor that Obama cheated on Michelle, during his presidency or ever, or engaged in any kind of scandalous personal behavior. And to be nonpartisan about it, that's also true of George W., as far as I can recall. He looks at Laura the way Obama looks at Michelle -- there's such obvious love there.
If anyone had hinted that either of them engaged a prostitute, got a blowjob from an intern, etc., I'd greet it with a laugh and a "pfft" -- I just can't picture it. As husbands and fathers go, both struck me as exemplary. If a dossier like the recently surfaced Russian one had come out about either of them, I'd have hooted with laughter and been certain it was a fake.
Not so for the Donald. And to be nonpartisan, not so for Bill. For both of them, the prostitute stuff, while I would keep an open mind, is at least credible to me.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 13, 2017 8:30:48 GMT -5
What with the kompromating (can I coin Trumpromating, or has someone done so already) dossier, this thread popped into my head. We can argue about what is and isn't a scandal politically speaking. But on a personal level, I don't think there's been so much as a discredited rumor that Obama cheated on Michelle, during his presidency or ever, or engaged in any kind of scandalous personal behavior. And to be nonpartisan about it, that's also true of George W., as far as I can recall. He looks at Laura the way Obama looks at Michelle -- there's such obvious love there. If anyone had hinted that either of them engaged a prostitute, got a blowjob from an intern, etc., I'd greet it with a laugh and a "pfft" -- I just can't picture it. As husbands and fathers go, both struck me as exemplary. If a dossier like the recently surfaced Russian one had come out about either of them, I'd have hooted with laughter and been certain it was a fake. Not so for the Donald. And to be nonpartisan, not so for Bill. For both of them, the prostitute stuff, while I would keep an open mind, is at least credible to me. Yeah, this. Obama never engaged in activity that was shameful, making you embarrassed to have him be the president. There is a certain class one expects from the person holding that office, and President Obama delivered that by the truck load.
Scandals? There were political ones.
Operation Fast and Furious. Benghazi. The IRS targeted conservative organizations The DOJ seized Associated Press phone records as well as phone and email records from Fox News reporter James Rosen. The NSA conducted mass surveillance against American citizens without a warrant. The Obama administration paid ransom to Iran for hostages, and lied to the American people about it. The GSA scandal.
Some of those might be unfair to lump under President Obama, and the measure of each will be different between different people and how they see them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 8:38:54 GMT -5
Yes, I will miss the class.
This election cycle made me realize just how important a certain level of class and dignity are to me in a leader. Trump has buttloads of money, but no class at all.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 13, 2017 8:54:55 GMT -5
Yes, I will miss the class. This election cycle made me realize just how important a certain level of class and dignity are to me in a leader. Trump has buttloads of money, but no class at all. Except for that fantasy where he's a bad school boy and the sexy nun uses a paddle to spank him. |
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Post by robeiae on Jan 13, 2017 9:07:02 GMT -5
Not so for the Donald. And to be nonpartisan, not so for Bill. For both of them, the prostitute stuff, while I would keep an open mind, is at least credible to me. I don't disagree at all. It's certainly credible. Don't know if I've told you this story before, but back when Bill Clinton was President, he was staying with Greg Norman at the latter's home in Port Salerno. Clinton--if you recall--injured his knee in a supposed fall down the steps. I used to be in Port Salerno every other week back then for work. Small community, everyone knows everyone. And the story was that Clinton fell while he and Norman were escorting two young women to their ride, after a late night round of golf, shall we say. Trump? I'd assume he uses prostitutes frequently. He seems like the type. That said, Trump is not yet in office. His behavior in the past--however atrocious--didn't occur while he was a public servant. I'm willing to give him some rope here. Though I doubt it will take long for him use it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 9:26:21 GMT -5
I'll add this -- I don't find sexual exploits disqualifying in a leader in and of themselves. By and large, I regard it as the spouse's problem; if a leader is otherwise good, I'll shrug (even if I wince a little at the same time). But that said...damn, I'd rather a president demonstrate some dignity and self-control while in office. Keep it to a discreet mistress, if you really must carry on an affair, not random exploits that make you, your family, and your country vulnerable to ridicule or worse.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 13, 2017 9:29:26 GMT -5
Well, the only thing I'd add to that is the issue of security: it's not 1896. Not only can a secret of this sort leave someone open to blackmail, it can also allow people--like mistresses--access to information that they shouldn't have access to. It's just not smart.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 9:40:09 GMT -5
Agree.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 12:39:18 GMT -5
Of course, illegal exploits qualify. If it can be established Trump romped with girls under the age of consent -- whether they were willing or not -- he broke the law. Rape or sexual assault qualifies, regardless of the age of the victim. Eliot Spitzer broke the law when he used an expensive call-girl.
Getting a BJ from Monica in the oval office did not break the law, though it was, IMO, icky as all hell for several reasons. That said, Bill committed perjury when he lied about it, which, alas made it my business as a citizen. And that said, I thought it was rather ridiculous he was being officially questioned about that to begin with -- seems to me that was more scandalous journalism fodder.
Hiring a prostitute in Russia may or may not be legal (I don't know Russian law).
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 13, 2017 12:55:02 GMT -5
In terms of sexual exploits outside of public office, rather than inside, here's how I see it.
1) If it's illegal, (not having sex with a 15 year while you were 15) but an adult with a minor, rape, etc, if provable, it should be disqualifying.
2) sleazy behavior isn't disqualifying, but is fair game for the public to discuss. It reflects on their character. Bill's habitual infidelity tells you what sort of man he is. So does Trumps. Both have no trouble treating young women in ways that they would never tolerate for their daughters. That give me great pause for the person they are. How am I supposed to trust Trump with the most important secrets of our country, trust his judgment if we need to launch an offensive, if he can't manage his sexual exploits as a decent man. I'm not talking about living a rock star way of life. If you're wild and free, then that's on you. I may not feel comfortable with the idea of having bedded multiple women before I was married, but I won't judge you by my standard. But being married, swearing fidelity and screwing everything in sight? No. I can even have sympathy for someone who has an affair with someone they care about while their marriage is in trouble. Not that it's okay, but it's not a place where I'd loose any and all respect for them.
I'll drag Hillary into this since even though she's not implicated in any of Bill's shenanigans or personal sex scandals (Unless you count some of the crazier rumors like Chelsea is Web Hubbell's love child.) but she put up with Bill's ways, was an enabler. She didn't care who he screwed.
As far as Monica, she was an intern, so that alone made it a no no. Not impeachable, but wrong. The lying under oath, the hiding and trying to evade the truth and obstruct justice and using it as a hammer against his political enemies was something worthy of life long scorn.
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Post by Christine on Jan 13, 2017 21:05:41 GMT -5
I'll drag Hillary into this since even though she's not implicated in any of Bill's shenanigans or personal sex scandals (Unless you count some of the crazier rumors like Chelsea is Web Hubbell's love child.) but she put up with Bill's ways, was an enabler. She didn't care who he screwed. Pardon, but how do you know what she cared about? And how did you decide she "put up with" or "enabled" anything? You got the bible on infidelity in your back pocket or something? |
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 13, 2017 22:17:22 GMT -5
I'll drag Hillary into this since even though she's not implicated in any of Bill's shenanigans or personal sex scandals (Unless you count some of the crazier rumors like Chelsea is Web Hubbell's love child.) but she put up with Bill's ways, was an enabler. She didn't care who he screwed. Pardon, but how do you know what she cared about? And how did you decide she "put up with" or "enabled" anything? You got the bible on infidelity in your back pocket or something? I would think since she didn't dump his ass, she put up with it. Unless you think she was cool with bedding down young interns, and other women. |
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