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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jan 7, 2017 9:45:26 GMT -5
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Post by Don on Jan 7, 2017 19:00:41 GMT -5
Oh, boy, do I know some people who need to read that!
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Post by Christine on Jan 7, 2017 20:24:24 GMT -5
But it's a lot easier to tell a racist/bigoted/misogynistic douchebag to STFU than to try (and likely fail) to convince them that their "views" are incorrect. Cutting to the chase, as it were.  |
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Post by Don on Jan 7, 2017 20:50:42 GMT -5
But it's a lot easier to tell a racist/bigoted/misogynistic douchebag to STFU than to try (and likely fail) to convince them that their "views" are incorrect. Cutting to the chase, as it were. Unfortunately, in this case, taking the easy way out guarantees a Trump vote. Sometimes the easy way isn't the way to change the world. "Be the change you want to see" is hard work. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 20:51:26 GMT -5
For me, it kind of depends on what we're talking about.
Someone referring to a black person as a nigger -- yeah, I don't feel I have to reason with them. If you live in 2017, unless you've spent your entire life in a closet, you should understand why that's an unacceptable slur. I don't think reasoning with such a person is going to help. I really don't.
But I don't feel the need to jump up in arms if someone calls me (or anyone) a "girl" as opposed to a "woman" -- unless they are doing it in a way that indicates they actually are trying to be belittling or sexist. And that's not always the case. That, I'd probably let roll off me. I listen for the tone and context, not the word. Someone saying I'm a nice girl, a pretty girl, or a smart girl -- meh, I generally don't feel the need to get huffy. To be totally honest, if I don't think they're trying to belittle my intellect by using it, I tend to be flattered they think I'm young enough to be called a girl. Despise me if you must.
An example of where I try to reason with people is when it comes to LGBT issues. I hear a lot of people make statements that I think they genuinely don't understand are hurtful, wrong, ignorant, or bigoted because it's out of their ken. But maybe if they did understand, they would think about it. E.g., I talked a couple of my relatives over on gay marriage. I've talked to a few about trans issues. Telling them about people I know and like and why talk like that hurts them sometimes gets through.
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Post by Don on Jan 7, 2017 20:58:41 GMT -5
For me, it kind of depends on what we're talking about. Someone referring to a black person as a nigger -- yeah, I don't feel I have to reason with them. If you live in 2017, unless you've spent your entire life in a closet, you should understand why that's an unacceptable slur. I don't think reasoning with such a person is going to help. I really don't. But I don't feel the need to jump up in arms if someone calls me (or anyone) a "girl" as opposed to a "woman" -- unless they are doing it in a way that indicates they actually are trying to be belittling or sexist. And that's not always the case. That, I'd probably let roll off me. I listen for the tone and context, not the word. Someone saying I'm a nice girl, a pretty girl, or a smart girl -- meh, I generally don't feel the need to get huffy. To be totally honest, if I don't think they're trying to belittle my intellect by using it, I tend to be flattered they think I'm young enough to be called a girl. Despise me if you must. An example of where I try to reason with people is when it comes to LGBT issues. I hear a lot of people make statements that I think they genuinely don't understand are hurtful, wrong, ignorant, or bigoted because it's out of their ken. But maybe if they did understand, they would think about it. E.g., I talked a couple of my relatives over on gay marriage. I've talked to a few about trans issues. Telling them about people I know and like and why talk like that hurts them sometimes gets through. I have a tl;dr anecdote about precisely that situation. I called a relative down for a gay slur in front of some other relatives, but nicely, more in hurt for my gay friends than in anger. This was someone a decade or so younger than me whose life experience and social circle had led him to some "stinkin' thinkin'" as one TV charlatan phrases it, but who's basically a good person at heart who would never intentionally hurt someone. You could have heard a pin drop, but it led immediately to a serious conversation and some changed hearts, simply by a shift in perspective and a healthy dose of empathy. I've had a little more hope for the world ever since that happened. |
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Post by Christine on Jan 7, 2017 22:17:22 GMT -5
To be clear, in real life, I don't tell anyone to STFU. (Though I say it inside my head.)
Of course it depends on what the person says, how they say it, and generally what kind of person I perceive them to be. A "girl" or "sweetie" from someone who has previously established that they respect me as a person is much different from a "girl" or "sweetie" from a random leering, knuckle-dragging passerby.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 22:39:58 GMT -5
To be clear, in real life, I don't tell anyone to STFU. (Though I say it inside my head.) Of course it depends on what the person says, how they say it, and generally what kind of person I perceive them to be. A "girl" or "sweetie" from someone who has previously established that they respect me as a person is much different from a "girl" or "sweetie" from a random leering, knuckle-dragging passerby. I've occasionally been known to tell someone to STFU in real life. Very rarely, but it has occurred. I have absolutely told people they were rude, out of line, or cruel, including on a few total strangers. But it really has to be pretty damn unquestionably purposeful bad behavior, not just possible cluelessness. and yeah, someone I know gets more slack for a "sweetie" than a stranger. And the sweet old guy in the grocery store gets more slack than a sneering young guy. It also can depend on where you are. I've noticed when I travel in Britain pretty much everyone calls me "love" or "dear". I don't mind at all -- I think it's cute. it's clearly meant as friendliness and not a sneer. |
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Post by Christine on Jan 7, 2017 22:49:02 GMT -5
Unfortunately, in this case, taking the easy way out guarantees a Trump vote. Sometimes the easy way isn't the way to change the world. "Be the change you want to see" is hard work. Sorry but I reeeeally don't think people voted for Trump for this reason. That's great, and good job. My wild guess is those changed hearts didn't belong to, say, evangelical Christians. My opinion is that, like with the word "nigger" and the concept of "colored people's time," other slurs and stereotyping need to be universally called out as WRONG. Most people don't use those racial epithets/phrases anymore because they became socially unacceptable; not because, one by one, we all had heart-to-heart chats with our friends. |
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Post by Christine on Jan 7, 2017 23:06:42 GMT -5
I've occasionally been known to tell someone to STFU in real life. Very rarely, but it has occurred. I have absolutely told people they were rude, out of line, or cruel, including on a few total strangers. But it really has to be pretty damn unquestionably purposeful bad behavior, not just possible cluelessness. and yeah, someone I know gets more slack for a "sweetie" than a stranger. And the sweet old guy in the grocery store gets more slack than a sneering young guy. It also can depend on where you are. I've noticed when I travel in Britain pretty much everyone calls me "love" or "dear". I don't mind at all -- I think it's cute. it's clearly meant as friendliness and not a sneer. I wish I was brave enough to say it sometimes. I either freeze up or laugh awkwardly or pretend to ignore rude behavior from strangers. Though if someone else is being talked down to or discriminated against, I have said something, just not when it comes to sexism towards me. I have two anecdotes regarding being called "sweetie." One was from a client, who is generally stiff and standoffish (understandably, since I'm the auditor of his company's financial statements). It was a few days before Christmas and we had a quick phone call re: plans for 2017, and at the end of the call I said "Merry Christmas!" and he said, "You too, sweetie." And I swear I could feel over the phone that he didn't even mean to say it and the awkwardness of it. It is SO not him and as a result, it was extremely pleasant. If that makes sense. I felt like he kind of liked me a little bit, in spite of himself. =D Contrast that with the painter I hired for my new house. First phone call, "sweetie." Second phone call, "sweetie." Did I find another painter? Of course not. I brushed it off, thinking, he's a painter. Painters just talk like that. Alas, I got a shithead painter who basically started vandalizing my house before I realized what he was doing and fired him. He didn't tape, he didn't remove face plates, he hit the ceiling with the roller and dripped paint on the floor and the baseboards. His cut ins were deplorable. I spent two hours getting the paint off the sides of my plantation shutters, which he didn't tape and ran his roller right next to. Sweetie, indeed. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2017 0:09:12 GMT -5
I'd sweetie him. Careless painters suck. For God's sake, use tape, dude.
The client story is adorable, though. It's nice when someone standoffish or curmudgeonly drops his guard a bit with you.
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Post by Don on Jan 8, 2017 5:00:06 GMT -5
Unfortunately, in this case, taking the easy way out guarantees a Trump vote. Sometimes the easy way isn't the way to change the world. "Be the change you want to see" is hard work. Sorry but I reeeeally don't think people voted for Trump for this reason. That's great, and good job. My wild guess is those changed hearts didn't belong to, say, evangelical Christians. My opinion is that, like with the word "nigger" and the concept of "colored people's time," other slurs and stereotyping need to be universally called out as WRONG. Most people don't use those racial epithets/phrases anymore because they became socially unacceptable; not because, one by one, we all had heart-to-heart chats with our friends. I think the left in general is making a huge mistake by failing to realize that a whole bunch of people reeeeeeally did vote for Trump because they were tired of hearing people being told to STFU, and tired of it being assumed they are racist/bigoted/misogynistic douchebags because they didn't want Queen Hillary. So, yeah, I think your first comment is not only wrong, but self-defeating. There were plenty of votes lost because someone who was simply not up on current PC terminology got dissed and called "deplorable" or a racist/bigoted/misogynistfic douchebag rather than being seriously engaged and educated. In all honesty, every Trump voter I can personally call to mind I would call a "backlash" voter. They weren't really voting for Trump, but against a status quo they feel has gone far beyond reasonable. I can't say I disagree with that analysis. Oh, and you're right. The people in my example weren't evangelical Christians. They were Southern Baptists. I don't think they're quite considered evangelical these days, but I could be wrong. And you're correct that such words should be called out as WRONG in capital letters. That's precisely what caused the quiet where you could have heard a pin drop. I was not in the least civil about pointing out the error of his ways... initially. But after the initial Arctic Blast froze him in his tracks, we continued a more reasonable discussion.  |
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Post by Christine on Jan 8, 2017 7:03:25 GMT -5
Maybe you can give me some tips on the proper way to dole out an Arctic Blast that leads to a reasonable discussion with the evangelicals in my circle of peeps. As far as Trump voters, I find it hard to believe that people voted for him because they were sick of political correctness. I think people disliked Hillary Clinton for reasons that had nothing to do with political correctness, and the rest of the Trump voters were Republicans anyway (who have been bitching about PC for a couple of decades). I mean, if PC was "the reason" people voted for Trump who would otherwise have voted for Hillary, it'd be like me setting fire to my own house because the painter called me "sweetie" one too many times. Then again, we've previously established that people are idiots... |
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Post by robeiae on Jan 8, 2017 8:17:40 GMT -5
A fair number of Trump voters--especially in the primaries--were first-time voters, or at least haven't-voted-in-a-long-while voters. Look: www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-voters-poll-idUSKBN1332RYI think Don is essentially correct: there was for indeed a reactionary element at work in this last election, partly comprised of people who were sick of being told they were morons or worse for even considering Trump, based on the "colorful" content of Trump's comments and tweets. |
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Post by Christine on Jan 8, 2017 9:11:53 GMT -5
Thereby proving their moronism, no?
Sorry, I'm feeling hateful after peeling paint splatter off my tile.
But to Don's point and your link, I'll concede that a lot of people voted for Trump for emotional reasons including being irritated at/sick of hearing about PC. Which, did I mention, is a really fucking stupid thing to base one's vote on.
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