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Post by robeiae on Jan 19, 2017 9:27:02 GMT -5
First, the bio of the author: Now, the article: thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/campaign/314934-why-im-leaving-the-democratic-partyHis three reasons for this decision: 1) Identity politics 2) The rhetoric currently coming from Dems (ala Trump being illegitimate and so forth) 3) Personal reflection (need to read, I'll not try to sum it up) Okay, I'm sure there are going to be people who will say "good riddance," just as I am sure there are people who are leaving the Republican Party (and have already left it) for issues similar to the above (including more reprehensible things like "racism" and "xenophobia"). I don't think this piece captures some sort of zeitgeist at all. Nonetheless, it's worth reading I think, just to see/process the impact of current political and social discourse on people who seem to generally be reasonable.
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Post by Amadan on Jan 19, 2017 10:29:01 GMT -5
Unsurprisingly, I sympathize with his aversion to the identity politics driving the Democratic Party. That said, I find it a little suspicious that he's considering becoming a Republican, rather than just an Independent. That suggests a more fundamental shift in his worldview than merely being sick of the excesses of progressives.
I often consider myself a moderate, but I am not sure how useful or accurate that label is. A lot of people (on both sides) disdain "moderates" for being lukewarm, wishy-washy, or allegedly triangulating their positions. I don't think that's entirely fair, but the fact is, I am not really moderate on a lot of things. It's just that my immoderate views don't consistently fall on a right/left divide.
He is right that bipartisanship is necessary for the country to function, but I think a lot of people say they want a "healthy two party system" because that sounds good. In reality, if you really subscribe to the beliefs of one party or the other, you want your side to crush the opposition and govern unopposed forever, no? Of course if you believe in democracy, you want that to be peaceful and without depriving adversaries of their rights (including their right to continue opposing you), but does any Democrat really object to the idea of Republicans being relegated to a rump party for the next century, or vice versa? If you think you're right, you should want your side to win, period. There is something to be said for also wanting a "loyal opposition" to keep you honest. But I don't think people really want opposition just for the sake of having opposition because "that's how a democracy is supposed to function."
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Post by Amadan on Jan 19, 2017 12:26:08 GMT -5
White men only bitch about identity politics when it involves non-Whites. They're fine with it when their self-interests are being protected and advanced and only get their panties in a bunch when it is threatened. A lot of other "marginalized identities" get wielded against and sometimes by white people. Whether or not you support privilege theory and identity politics, it is simply untrue that everyone (and especially white people) who objects to it are doing so out of blind self interest.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 19, 2017 12:52:42 GMT -5
More and more, people feel like they can identify with either of the major parties. Most Republicans I know don't support the extreme right. They're pro choice, pro lgbt. I have a friend/editor. She identifies as republican, but she'll also identify as bi. Also prochoice.
The probable is both parties are becoming more and more narrow minded, less and less inclusive of those that don't hold the party line, through and through. In different ways for each, and one could argue to varying degrees, but it's there on both sides.
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Post by Amadan on Jan 19, 2017 13:04:17 GMT -5
I've always found people like Catholic Democrats and Log Cabin Republicans to be kind of odd. I mean, I know when you have (effectively) a binary choice, you have to pick the party that checks more of your boxes than the other, even while knowing they don't represent all your beliefs. But if someone is an actual Catholic who follows Church teachings, it must require some serious mental gymnastics to support pro-choice candidates. And likewise, being a gay Republican - sure, it's about the taxes, and I know lots of gay people can be pretty conservative, but it must be hard ignoring that elephant in the room at the convention, knowing that a substantial number of your GOP brethren believe you're going to burn in hell, or at the very least, that you're a sexual deviant they put up with for the sake of your vote.
This is how coalitions work, but looking at the politics of countries like Israel, Italy, or even Great Britain, I'm not convinced forced coalitions of parties with radically different agendas actually improves government.
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Post by Amadan on Jan 19, 2017 13:17:37 GMT -5
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. Mine is democrats with a small "d" like Hout, are the living embodiment of Whiny White People who hear words like "diversity," "inclusion" and "equality" and conclude that must mean THEY are coming for what belongs to HIM. Which is untrue. To paraphrase James Baldwin, the only thing White people like Hout have that any person of color wants is power and the realization nobody holds on to power forever panics him. I'm glad Hout is leaving the Democratic Party and I sincerely hope he takes anybody who thinks like him with him when he goes. I read nothing in his essay that suggested he's a whiny white person who thinks non-white people are coming to get his stuff. Whether or not you agree that identity politics are destructive and divisive (clearly you disagree), your reading of Hout as a panicky closet racist seems constructed out of large assumptions and improbable stretches.
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Post by celawson on Jan 19, 2017 14:33:06 GMT -5
I have zero fucks to give about some coward leaving the Democratic Party over so-called "identity politics." I don't know, Ohio, it seems to me you all (the Democratic party) are in a precarious political position right now. It might be better to see why there is such a backlash instead of giving zero f***s.
White men only bitch about identity politics when it involves non-Whites. They're fine with it when their self-interests are being protected and advanced and only get their panties in a bunch when it is threatened. (I think this can be easily said about any group.)
Hout is outraged some Democrats consider President-Elect Pussygrabber "illegitimate?" Too bad so sad. Maybe if Trump hadn't done his worst to make Obama illegitimate through the racist Birther movement there wouldn't be this withering scrutiny of Trump's own legitimacy. Maybe if Trump wasn't Putin's boot boy and the Russian tampering with the last election hadn't cast such a shadow over Trump's legitimacy, maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion. But they did and so we are. Hout will probably be happier as a Trump Chump in the GOP, not that I care even one little bit about his happiness. Guys like Hout need to be gone because they are impediments to rebuilding progressive politics into a force that wins elections and takes back the presidency from the Usurper-In-Chief. I think the rebuilding of progressive politics should try to examine why it has been such a disaster for the Dems - look at the seats lost across the nation in the Senate, House, governorships, not to mention being unable to beat the most unliked Republican candidate in forever. Guys like Hout are telling your party something. It might behoove your party to see where it can come together, rather than move further left or stay stubbornly where it is. Good-bye, good riddance and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. (And I, as a Republican, open my arms to young involved intelligent defectors such as this guy. )
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Post by Amadan on Jan 19, 2017 14:38:54 GMT -5
You also read nothing where I called Hout "a panicky closet racist." That is something you constructed out of large assumptions and improbable stretches. I constructed it from this: "democrats with a small "d" like Hout, are the living embodiment of Whiny White People who hear words like "diversity," "inclusion" and "equality" and conclude that must mean THEY are coming for what belongs to HIM" "the only thing White people like Hout have that any person of color wants is power and the realization nobody holds on to power forever panics him"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 16:10:28 GMT -5
I agree with Amadan that the fact that this particular guy switched to being a Democrat to being a Republican indicates a shift in worldview rather than mere disenchantment with the Democratic party.
That said, though, I DO think many are disenchanted with the Democratic party (and also the Republican party) without it being about a shift in their worldview. I'm one of them. I'm registered as a Democrat, but I'd switch to unaffiliated if it didn't mean I couldn't vote in a primary in my state.
I agree with c.e. that it would behoove the Democratic party to take a look at why some felt too disenchanted to vote this time around, or voted third party rather than Hillary, despite the opposition being Trump. For me, Trump was enough to get me out there voting for the person who had the best shot of defeating him. Clearly, though, a good number of people, especially in crucial swing states, didn't feel that way.
I'd say it might be a good idea to consider that before 2018 and 2020.
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Post by Amadan on Jan 19, 2017 16:49:16 GMT -5
When it comes to constructed you should probably stick to Legos. There's still nothing in what I wrote said Hout was a "panicky closet racist." What you've done isn't construction. It's a blatant misrepresentation. Try to refute what I actually said instead of phrases you made up or is that too tough for you? You literally claimed he was panicking. "Panicky" - check. You claimed that what panics him is fear that "THEY are coming for what belongs to HIM" - "THEY" being people of color, what belongs to him being "power." It requires very little construction to infer that that motivation, if accurate, indicates at least a wee bit of racism. "Racist" - check. "Closet" would be obvious, since as a good moderate liberal ex-Democrat, Hout is surely trying keep these racist fears hidden away until perceptive critics like yourself reveal the fears that really drive him. "Closet" - check.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 17:35:15 GMT -5
It is most certainly not blatant misrepresentation. It is what you said.
ETA:
Moreover, anyone can read your words and Amadan's in the thread and come to their own conclusion. Therefore, this is a singularly stupid conversation.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 19, 2017 17:39:23 GMT -5
Yeah... Amadan's characterization of your characterization of Haut is from here: Mine is democrats with a small "d" like Hout, are the living embodiment of Whiny White People who hear words like "diversity," "inclusion" and "equality" and conclude that must mean THEY are coming for what belongs to HIM. I read nothing in his essay that suggested he's a whiny white person who thinks non-white people are coming to get his stuff. Whether or not you agree that identity politics are destructive and divisive (clearly you disagree), your reading of Hout as a panicky closet racist seems constructed out of large assumptions and improbable stretches. Seems like a fair interpretation to me. Of course, you can say that it's not. Dropping the "panicky" and the "closet" part for a moment (and really, those are hardly critical characterizations, are they?), I'd just ask this: when you say he's "the living embodiment of Whiny White People" who think "THEY" are coming for what is his, what do you mean? Because my reading is that "THEY" refers to non-white people (or at least to marginalized groups) and that therefore he is bigoted against such groups at a bare minimum; racist isn't much of a jump.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 17:52:18 GMT -5
I believe "panicky" came from this quote. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. Mine is democrats with a small "d" like Hout, are the living embodiment of Whiny White People who hear words like "diversity," "inclusion" and "equality" and conclude that must mean THEY are coming for what belongs to HIM. Which is untrue. To paraphrase James Baldwin, the only thing White people like Hout have that any person of color wants is power and the realization nobody holds on to power forever panics him. I'm glad Hout is leaving the Democratic Party and I sincerely hope he takes anybody who thinks like him with him when he goes.
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Post by Amadan on Jan 19, 2017 20:58:13 GMT -5
What I mean is there are "Whiny White People" who fear non-White people are coming for their jobs, their homes, their schools, their way of life and it's a Grand Canyon jump in logic to jumble peevish and perturbed behavior as brushing up against bigoted-to-downright-racist behavior. What I mean by "Whiny White People" are those who feel the pendulum has swung the wrong way and now it's White people who are losing out and being racially discriminated against because of the color of their skin and their issues of importance are being pushed to the rear of the refrigerator while those of non-Whites go right into the oven. Okay, so Hout is a whiny white person suffering from racial fear and paranoia and clinging to white privilege... but he's not a racist? That seems very inconsistent given the behaviors I have seen you label "racist" in both effect and intent in the past. Some people may push back against "identity politics" as code for "civil rights," but I do not consider the two equivalent at all, and I don't think a lot of people who deride identity politics are actually anti-civil rights. So calling someone whiny, panicked, privileged, and fearing reverse racism is not code-switching for "racist," but criticizing "identity politics" is code-switching for "opposes civil rights"? I think there is certainly a large percentage of the Republican Party that does that. When have you pointed this out and had people say "No, that's not true at all"? There are Republicans here, and I, while not a fan of the GOP, would disagree that the GOP is officially or unofficially the "Party of White People," but no one has claimed that only non-white people play identity politics.
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Post by Amadan on Jan 19, 2017 21:48:55 GMT -5
I am on point. I find your assertion that Hout is suffering from racial paranoia and resentment, but it's unfair for me to classify that (or more precisely, to read that you classify that) as "racist" to be rather ridiculous. I find it very hard to believe that if I was expressing a fear that "THEY" are going to take "MY" stuff that you wouldn't, in so many words, tell me I was being racist. And I am not going to approach every thread as if in a vacuum, pretending we are meeting for the first time, because nobody does that.
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