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Post by Optimus on Mar 20, 2017 20:47:40 GMT -5
Ohio logic:
"Who cares if Chuck Berry violated over 200 women by illegally recording them, was arrested for child abuse, and arrested for taking a 14 year old girl across state lines for likely pervy reasons? There's no reason to point that out because he was still a great musician."
Ohio logic applied elsewhere:
"Who cares if Bill Cosby drugged and raped all those women? There's no reason to point that out because he was still a great entertainer."
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Post by poetinahat on Mar 20, 2017 20:57:20 GMT -5
I think it's fair enough to acknowledge that heroes are flawed (to say the least), and there's been a large dose of ambivalence in this thread - it's kind of the crux of the discussion. Me and Bobby D, by Everything but the Girl
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2017 21:19:25 GMT -5
I have a theory that great flaws very often accompany great talent.
I can still appreciate the music and the talent. Nothing can kill those Berry guitar riffs for me. He will always be a rock legend. But I can't not think of the crimes, too.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 20, 2017 21:21:53 GMT -5
Ohio logic: "Who cares if Chuck Berry violated over 200 women by illegally recording them, was arrested for child abuse, and arrested for taking a 14 year old girl across state lines for likely pervy reasons? There's no reason to point that out because he was still a great musician." Ohio logic applied elsewhere: "Who cares if Bill Cosby drugged and raped all those women? There's no reason to point that out because he was still a great entertainer." Uh-huh. And WHERE was this "Ohio logic" applied, smart guy? Since you're so fond of referencing other sites, why not go all the way and name it. Let's see if you're sporting balls the size of an elephant or just dried Rasinettes. Not only is your "logic" skewed, you're the guy dumping on a 90-year-old Black man and then for comparison sake (a false one since I've never stated either of those dishonest "quotes") now you're deliberately lying to use me so you can dump on a 79-year-old Black man. You might want to try a wee bit harder to conceal your obvious race-based biases, but then again, if you're on a roll, keep on rolling.
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Post by Optimus on Mar 20, 2017 21:24:56 GMT -5
I think it's fair enough to acknowledge that heroes are flawed (to say the least), and there's been a large dose of ambivalence in this thread - it's kind of the crux of the discussion. And that's kind of my overall point; being great at a job doesn't make someone a great person. And, we can celebrate their art/achievements without lionizing them. But, it is a sad indictment of modern culture that the horrible behavior of celebrities is often quickly forgiven and forgotten as long as they can headline a summer blockbuster, fill an arena, or win your team a championship. Ah, the moral trade-offs we're willing to make in order to be entertained.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2017 21:26:05 GMT -5
Mod note: Let's remember our rule about not referencing discussions on other sites. Please and thank you.
(Since another forum discussion was referenced, in fairness to Ohio, I must note that I recall the discussion and he did not let Cosby off the hook.)
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Post by Optimus on Mar 20, 2017 21:34:08 GMT -5
Ohio logic: "Who cares if Chuck Berry violated over 200 women by illegally recording them, was arrested for child abuse, and arrested for taking a 14 year old girl across state lines for likely pervy reasons? There's no reason to point that out because he was still a great musician." Ohio logic applied elsewhere: "Who cares if Bill Cosby drugged and raped all those women? There's no reason to point that out because he was still a great entertainer." WHERE was this "Ohio logic" applied, smart guy? Since you're so fond of referencing other sites, why not go all the way and name it. Let's see if you're sporting balls the size of an elephant or just dried Rasinettes. Not only is your "logic" skewed, you're the guy dumping on a 90-year-old Black man and then for comparison sake (a false one since I've never stated that dishonest quote) now you're deliberately lying to use me so you can dump on a 79-year-old Black man. You might want to try a wee bit harder to conceal your obvious race-based prejudices, but then again, if you're on a roll, keep on rolling. Oh look, an illogical, overly emotional reaction devoid of anything substantive. Thanks, I can set my watch now. "Elsewhere" wasn't a reference to another message board. I simply meant that your dismissive, "nothing to see here" logic could just as easily be applied to other recent stories of "legendary" celebrities being caught doing shitty things. I don't recall participating in any threads on other boards dealing with Cosby. Maybe I did, but I certainly don't remember who posted what. I have much more going on in my life than remembering old discussions on anonymous internet message boards. YMMV, though. Your accusations of racism are typical SJW bullshit, where someone makes a fact-based argument and the reaction is to automatically accuse that person of racism, sexism, homophobia, Islamophobia, blah blah fucking blah. It's such a tired, intellectually lazy and dishonest response tactic. I could have just as easily used Brock Turner rather than Bill Cosby, but Turner was just a collegiate athlete and relatively unknown before he got arrested. Cosby was the only recent example I could think of where a well-known celebrity had been accused of something horrible and pervy. But, I suppose if a person is always wearing victimhood-colored glasses, they'll see racism everywhere.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 20, 2017 21:40:45 GMT -5
I think it's fair enough to acknowledge that heroes are flawed (to say the least), and there's been a large dose of ambivalence in this thread - it's kind of the crux of the discussion. And that's kind of my overall point; being great at a job doesn't make someone a great person. And, we can celebrate their art/achievements without lionizing them. But, it is a sad indictment of modern culture that the horrible behavior of celebrities is often quickly forgiven and forgotten as long as they can headline a summer blockbuster, fill an arena, or win your team a championship. Ah, the moral trade-offs we're willing to make in order to be entertained. It's even sadder how the righteous hypocrites who have achieved little to nothing of note take such gleeful pleasure in passing their saintly condemnation upon those who have become legendary. Fortunately, nobody outside of this board and whomever is unlucky enough to be in your Facebook newsfeed will pay this drivel any attention. Chuck Berry wasn't a perfect human being and most people know that and they aren't blind to his failiings. They just down for kicking around a dead man on a debate board for the mean-spirited amusement of the sanctimonious rabble.
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Post by Optimus on Mar 20, 2017 21:51:45 GMT -5
And that's kind of my overall point; being great at a job doesn't make someone a great person. And, we can celebrate their art/achievements without lionizing them. But, it is a sad indictment of modern culture that the horrible behavior of celebrities is often quickly forgiven and forgotten as long as they can headline a summer blockbuster, fill an arena, or win your team a championship. Ah, the moral trade-offs we're willing to make in order to be entertained. It's even sadder how the righteous hypocrites who have achieved little to nothing of note take such gleeful pleasure in passing their saintly condemnation upon those who have become legendary. Fortunately, nobody outside of this board and whomever is unlucky enough to be in your Facebook newsfeed will pay this drivel any attention. Chuck Berry wasn't a perfect human being and most people know that and they aren't blind to his failiings. They just down for kicking around a dead man on a debate board for the mean-spirited amusement of the sanctimonious rabble. I'm just gonna respond with a quote from my favorite internet philosopher: "For someone's opinion that supposedy (sic) carries no weight you certainly spend fo (sic) a lot of time responding to it. But it does raise the question of whether making silly assertions and sillier animosity is your way of ducking out bringing any information to the debate besides your unsupported opinions?"
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 20, 2017 21:58:57 GMT -5
WHERE was this "Ohio logic" applied, smart guy? Since you're so fond of referencing other sites, why not go all the way and name it. Let's see if you're sporting balls the size of an elephant or just dried Rasinettes. Not only is your "logic" skewed, you're the guy dumping on a 90-year-old Black man and then for comparison sake (a false one since I've never stated that dishonest quote) now you're deliberately lying to use me so you can dump on a 79-year-old Black man. You might want to try a wee bit harder to conceal your obvious race-based prejudices, but then again, if you're on a roll, keep on rolling. Oh look, an illogical, overly emotional reaction devoid of anything substantive. Thanks, I can set my watch now. Says the guy who manufactures quotes. I defer to your greater experience with an illogical, overly emotional reaction devoid of anything substantive. You got that ball rolling with your "Let's Shit On Chuck Berry" hateration OP. So you're saying Cassandra made it all up in her head? That's bullshit, but then you already bullshitted with your made-up "Ohio logic" quotes, so points for consistency. The question is, who do you think you're bullshitting, Opty? There's not enough newbies here for you to even and try and pull that con. Kicking around Chuck Berry for shits n' giggles doesn't have jackshit to do with a "fact-based argument". I'd happily be a Social Justice Warrior in the face of a reactionary, neo-liberal reactionary who reguarly shits on any manifestation of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia that doesn't match his own narrow parameters of what is acceptable, but I'm not a SJW. I'm just the guy who isn't impressed or intimidated by petulant displays of Neo-Liberal White Privilege. Not here, there, or "elsewhere." Says the intellectually lazy and dishonest guy who makes up quotes for intellecutally lazy and dishonest posts. Praise from Satan. Not everywhere. But in your posts? Consistently.
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Post by robeiae on Mar 21, 2017 7:36:49 GMT -5
Chuck Berry's accomplishments and contributions to the music industry will never be forgotten. They are yuuuuge.
It's a simple thing to recognize that, to laud him for that.
But he was most definitely flawed. So is Jerry Lee Lewis (and obviously lots of other famous people)
Cosby, I think, is far more flawed, in a horrible way. Ditto for Charlie Chaplin.
Maybe it's their body of work or their legacies in their industries, but I have to admit I have no problem separating these things from the bad stuff these people did, even the last two. Still, it's fair to put an asterisk by their names, because their flaws damaged other people, innocent people.
Oddly, I have a much harder time doing that with Roman Polanski, separating his work from his conduct. I can't put my finger on exactly why this is.
All that said, there are a lot of people who seem more than willing to ignore the transgressions of some great stars completely. Polanski, for instance, has fans who simply will not acknowledge that he did anything wrong or that if he did, it's okay because of his talent. Anecdotally, I know people who are harder on Michael Vick than they are on either Cosby of Chaplin, will absolutely not forgive the former, but defend the latter two. I can't fathom that mindset.
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Post by CG Admin on Mar 21, 2017 7:54:09 GMT -5
I pulled out just two statements here to make a point (there are others, to be sure): But, I suppose if a person is always wearing victimhood-colored glasses, they'll see racism everywhere. Says the intellectually lazy and dishonest guy who makes up quotes for intellecutally lazy and dishonest posts. Praise from Satan. It's a simple rule, really: attack the argument, not the person: Not okay: Okay: Clear? Good.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 21, 2017 13:07:52 GMT -5
If we should only celebrate the passing of the Perfect Human Being we would have no one to celebrate. If for nothing other than "Johnny B. Goode" Chuck Berry would be an towering figure in rock n' roll. Or as John Lennon put it, "If you tried to give rock and roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry.'
Nobody's saying Berry deserves a pass for the more disgusting aspects of his life. But if this guy is still considered a beloved American icon by many even after saying this...
With a lot of blacks, there’s quite a bit of resentment along with their dissent, and possibly rightfully so. But we can’t all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks. I believe in white supremacy until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. I don’t believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgment to irresponsible people. ~ John Wayne
...then people can find it in their hearts to forgive, if not necessarily forget, the sins of Chuck Berry, but then maybe some hearts are just bigger than others.
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Post by robeiae on Mar 21, 2017 13:37:42 GMT -5
John Wayne's viewpoint there is sad and wrong, imo. And it's fair to note that he said this (along with some bad stuff about Native Americans, if I recall correctly).
But this viewpoint--however horrible one finds it to be--is not equivalent to secretly filming women in bathrooms, imo. Causing intentional harm to actual, identifiable people is worse than just saying something ignorant, I think. Really, if one wants to point to an icon who largely gets a pass for his awful behavior, I think Chaplin is a far better example. Again, he's far worse than Berry. He's right there with Cosby, though possibly far worse than him as well, in some respects. Yet, few seem to realize this.
Regardless, I don't see any need to forgive any of them. I can still appreciate their accomplishments sans such forgiveness, and it's not like they need my forgiveness, now or in the past.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 21, 2017 15:11:58 GMT -5
John Wayne's viewpoint there is sad and wrong, imo. And it's fair to note that he said this (along with some bad stuff about Native Americans, if I recall correctly). But this viewpoint--however horrible one finds it to be--is not equivalent to secretly filming women in bathrooms, imo. Causing intentional harm to actual, identifiable people is worse than just saying something ignorant, I think. Really, if one wants to point to an icon who largely gets a pass for his awful behavior, I think Chaplin is a far better example. Again, he's far worse than Berry. He's right there with Cosby, though possibly far worse than him as well, in some respects. Yet, few seem to realize this. Regardless, I don't see any need to forgive any of them. I can still appreciate their accomplishments sans such forgiveness, and it's not like they need my forgiveness, now or in the past. Eye of the beholder, and all that. An admitted racist like Wayne is every bit as detestable to me as a peeping pervert like Berry. Some will forever regard Jane Fonda as "Hanoi Jane" the comforter of America's enemies and Fatty Arbuckle as a rapist or Jimmy Page as a Satanist. That's their look-out, but I don't feel a need to join them in their condemnations. Whenever we get into a "who's worse" contest there are always going to be far more egregious examples than others. Filming women in the restroom is skeevy, but drugging, raping or murdering women is much worse in my less-than-humble-opinion. I enjoyed John Wayne flicks despite his appalling advocacy of White supremacy just as much as I enjoyed Bill Cosby's stand-up comedy and TV shows from The Electric Company to Black History: Lost, Stolen or Strayed to The Cosby Show despite him being a serial rapist. The enjoyment is tainted by their bad acts, but I won't act as though I never liked John Wayne or Bill Cosby or Woody Allen or Roman Polanski or Robert Blake or O.J. Simpson. Just not so much anymore.
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