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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 22:10:12 GMT -5
A grim joke I saw on Twitter -- Trump leaked more information in one meeting than McCain did in years of captivity and torture.
I've raised my odds of Trump leaving office, one way or another, before 2020 to "more likely than not."
I honestly can't imagine that many Republicans wouldn't prefer Pence anyway. And I think at this point, a lot of us would at least feel safer. I also doubt that there's much personal loyalty to Trump.
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Post by Angie on May 16, 2017 22:27:00 GMT -5
I detest Pence and everything he stands for. But at least he's a GROWNUP. Who knows how to do grownup things. And how to speak like a grownup, particularly with other world leaders.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 22:32:59 GMT -5
At this point, that sounds pretty good.
If Pence pushes policies we don't like, we can push back. We can vote. We can fight for causes. If Trump destroys the trust of our allies, jeopardizes us with enemies, undermines the foundation of our government, gets us in a fucking war for insufficient reason, gets our intelligence officers and soldiers killed...that's not so easily fixed.
Pence 2017.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 22:45:15 GMT -5
Awesome tweet in my feed: /photo/1
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Post by Angie on May 16, 2017 22:47:14 GMT -5
Awesome tweet in my feed: /photo/1 Haha!!
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 22:48:13 GMT -5
That's the sort of thing that makes Twitter worthwhile. ETA: Another one I like:
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 15:31:02 GMT -5
The turmoil is taking a yuuuuge hit on the stock market today. www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/trump-controversies-rattle-stock-markets-worldwide/2017/05/17/3e564680-3b0d-11e7-8854-21f359183e8c_story.htmlI am really worried. I've been fantasizing today about Trump simply stepping aside and letting Pence take over, sparing us impeachment proceedings and much angst. I think at least things would be a hell of a lot calmer and more normal then. Our allies would likely be vastly relieved. I would sleep better. I've thought about doing a poll to that effect -- is there any member who, sitting here now, wouldn't prefer Pence at the helm to Trump? ETA: I'm not asking if you like Pence. (I can make guesses at who does and doesn't. ) I'm asking "would you prefer him to Trump?"
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Post by maxinquaye on May 17, 2017 15:39:48 GMT -5
As a gay man, a Pence presidency would terrify me. It might not go Chechnya, but it could mean electroshock therapy for kids, federal employment bans, revoking same-sex marriage, and acceptance of abuse in the justice system.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 15:58:07 GMT -5
As a gay man, a Pence presidency would terrify me. It might not go Chechnya, but it could mean electroshock therapy for kids, federal employment bans, revoking same-sex marriage, and acceptance of abuse in the justice system. All of which (I hope it goes without saying), I would deeply oppose and fight against. But (1) a president doesn't have the power to single-handedly put through such policies. While we do, alas, have shitheads in the population and Congress who would favor it, it still, thank heaven, isn't most of us. Most people accept, if not support, same-sex marriage, don't favor conversion therapy, etc., and I just can't imagine Pence using whatever political clout he has in a doomed-to-fail push for them. He wouldn't be able to afford the firestorm, especially now, after Trump. (2) I frankly don't think Trump is going to be better in that front, though I once thought he might be. A lot of social issues are less about what the president favors and more about the way voters overall feel. Obama and Clinton didn't favor same sex marriage just a few years ago -- but as public opinion shifted, so did they. Don't get me wrong, Pence will never favor it -- but that's not the same as pushing to enact unpopular legislation to revoke protections and rights. Ditto on abortion. Roe and Casey are the law of the land. Pence can't just change it. Even the Supreme court can't just up and change it. And most people favor at least some abortion rights, so I don't see it happening. Pence would do plenty I don't like, I'm sure, but I think it would be stuff our ballot box and our system of checks and balances can handle. Trump, I fear, could bring down the whole system. But maybe, god help us, in my terror (it amounts to terror) of Trump, I'm being too optimistic.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 16:32:00 GMT -5
...the fact is, of courseand, that this is still an exercise in fantasyland. Trump is showing no signs of stepping down, and with Republicans controlling Congress, it will take them believing Trump is doing more harm to the GOP in office than impeaching him would cause. I don't doubt most of them secretly would (much) prefer Pence, but impeaching is some big stuff.
That said, I think it's considerably more likely than it was. And then there is 2018. Still, right now, it is a mere hypothetical question
ETA:
Part of my thinking on the Trump vs Pence thing:. Whatever their personal beliefs, I think Pence understands and respects the way our system of government is supposed to work, and is a grown-up who will inform himself, not fly off the handle on impulse, and knows who our damn allies are (hint: not Russia).
I don't think Trump understands or respects any of that, nor do I think he ever will. Hence, I think he is more likely to damage the system of checks and balances that keep extremism at bay.
We have no choice beyond Trump vs Pence until 2020, so wistful speculation on other potential replacements will certainly bear no fruit until then.
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Post by Amadan on May 17, 2017 16:51:58 GMT -5
I know Don thinks Pence is Nehemiah Scudder, but I don't think so. I think he'd be just another Reagan. Bad enough, but not apocalyptically bad. Or even Trump-bad.
I think folks expecting Trump to step down or be impeached are dreaming, though. I think he will serve out his entire 4-year term.
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Post by michaelw on May 17, 2017 17:24:54 GMT -5
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Post by michaelw on May 17, 2017 18:26:13 GMT -5
I know Don thinks Pence is Nehemiah Scudder, but I don't think so. I think he'd be just another Reagan. Bad enough, but not apocalyptically bad. Or even Trump-bad. I think folks expecting Trump to step down or be impeached are dreaming, though. I think he will serve out his entire 4-year term. Yeah, I think we can rule out resignation all together. He's not that kind of guy, IMO. I'd rate impeachment as a bit more plausible, though.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 18:34:57 GMT -5
I don't think Pence has the charisma, the force, or the support necessary to do anything extreme. And, as I noted above, I think he'd play by the traditional rule book. Trump has a cult following, and doesn't give a shit about the rulebook (and I really haven't figured out what the hell his convictions are, if any, other than "I must win and you are all losers!") And that, IMO, is incredibly dangerous in a leader.
Yes, Trump probably would never gracefully resign. Stomping off in a huge hissy fit, on the other hand...
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 18:54:54 GMT -5
This is amazing news. I was almost afraid to trust it. But it seems to be official.
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