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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 21:51:41 GMT -5
I agree, in fact -- the "ape in heels" comment absolutely is unacceptable and outrageous regardless.
But remarking on her lack of dignity and class (as they do)? She obviously has both attributes. Their failure to see it is due to their racism.
But I think it IS possible to say someone lacks dignity and class without it being racist. For example, IMO, Trump has neither dignity not class. Has squat to do with being a white orange male. It has to do with his behavior.
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Post by Don on Nov 16, 2016 21:54:31 GMT -5
I agree, in fact -- the "ape in heels" comment absolutely is unacceptable and outrageous regardless. But remarking on her lack of dignity and class (as they do)? She obviously has both attributes. Their failure to see it is due to their racism. But I think it IS possible to say someone lacks dignity and class without it being racist. For example, IMO, Trump has neither dignity not class. Has squat to do with being a white orange male. It has to do with his behavior. Does this mean orange is the new black?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 22:02:45 GMT -5
No, it just means Trump is the color of a moldering tangerine. It is not, I hope, a trend that will catch on.
(I'm afraid, president or no, I shall continue to come up with colorful nicknames for him. It will give me something to do during long winter nights.)
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Post by robeiae on Nov 16, 2016 22:13:39 GMT -5
Just fyi, my underlying point--from thread title to post content--was that the fears many have of racists being in government leadership positions, the fears that many "poo-poo" or otherwise downplay, maybe need to be accepted as fair, as justifiable, given the undeniable reality of these two particular people being in elected office and/or government positions.
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Post by Angie on Nov 16, 2016 22:14:08 GMT -5
Does this mean orange is the new black?
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Post by Christine on Nov 16, 2016 22:15:17 GMT -5
I agree, in fact -- the "ape in heels" comment absolutely is unacceptable and outrageous regardless. But remarking on her lack of dignity and class (as they do)? She obviously has both attributes. Their failure to see it is due to their racism. But I think it IS possible to say someone lacks dignity and class without it being racist. For example, IMO, Trump has neither dignity not class. Has squat to do with being a white orange male. It has to do with his behavior. We're on the same page, for sure. It's just that, applying the concept of dignity and class to Trump, a white male, and concluding (correctly) that he has none, as though it's the same thing these women did in talking about Michele Obama, a black female, where they concluded (incorrectly) she had none ... well, even though I agree with you about Trump and disagree with them about our first lady, it doesn't carry the same weight. Because of the effects of racism. For another example, like how you added earlier, that with condemning their racism we should also condemn people punching Trump supporters... while that's true and we should, I don't think the two different actions should be so easily combined as equally condemnable acts. Not in the same conversation. We have a problem with racism. I think we need to be more... incisive about it.
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Post by Christine on Nov 16, 2016 22:18:24 GMT -5
Just fyi, my underlying point--from thread title to post content--was that the fears many have of racists being in government leadership positions, the fears that many "poo-poo" or otherwise downplay, maybe need to be accepted as fair, as justifiable, given the undeniable reality of these two particular people being in elected office and/or government positions. Thanks for that elaboration. Sorry it wasn't clear to me as it probably was to others. I'm used to the poo-poo take on it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 22:21:54 GMT -5
And you are welcome to that opinion.
I tend toward the view that I will condemn bad behavior where I see it, period, to the degree I feel it deserves it.
I happen to think punching someone simply because they voted for Trump -- which is assault and a felony, and which, apparently, has happened, is not something we should pretend is fine because other people are racist.
IMO, a yuuuge problem with political dialogue in this country is each side's tendency to throw rocks at the other and not their own. I won't do it. I condemn racism with all my brain and heart. I also condemn assault.
ETA:
sorry, guys! I kinda got my threads conflated. going on very little sleep here. see a couple posts below.
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Post by Angie on Nov 16, 2016 22:22:16 GMT -5
Just fyi, my underlying point--from thread title to post content--was that the fears many have of racists being in government leadership positions, the fears that many "poo-poo" or otherwise downplay, maybe need to be accepted as fair, as justifiable, given the undeniable reality of these two particular people being in elected office and/or government positions. Thanks for that elaboration. Sorry it wasn't clear to me as it probably was to others. I'm used to the poo-poo take on it. Expecting poo-poo around here is entirely justified. *rimshot*
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Post by Angie on Nov 16, 2016 22:25:13 GMT -5
And you are welcome to that opinion. I tend toward the view that I will condemn bad behavior where I see it, period, to the degree I feel it deserves it. I happen to think punching someone simply because they voted for Trump -- which is assault and a felony, and which, apparently, has happened, is not something we should pretend is fine because other people are racist. IMO, a yuuuge problem with political dialogue in this country is each side's tendency to throw rocks at the other and not their own. I won't do it. I condemn racism with all my brain and heart. I also condemn assault. While I know it sounds wishy-washy, I agree with both of you. Both racism AND assault on Trump voters need to be condemned, loudly and often. But I think I get where Christine is coming from - with things like racism, that have been going on since this country was founded, there's a fear that the message will get muddled or watered down if we're also spreading our focus to other issues. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of issues that currently need to be addressed, so I definitely understand that fear.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 22:38:42 GMT -5
A fair point. But I think what happens increasingly is that people ignore bad behavior on their own political side with a "but they do X!". And I think it's turned into kindergarten.
If I expect people to be civil and show respect, I need to be civil and show respect, even (perhaps especially) if my opponent is not. Here, IMO, the left would stand on much higher ground and be in a much better position to condemn assholes on the other side if they weren't whistling when assholes on their own side misbehave.
I clean up my own lawn, when it needs it, however atrocious the neighbor's looks.
ETA:
And if I am calling upon them to join in on condemning their side's shitty behavior? (As I assuredly am?) Hell, yeah, I'm calling out my side, too -- if only because I have a lot more credibility then and much better standing to condemn their assholes.
ETA:
sorry, guys! I kinda got my threads conflated. going on very little sleep here. see a couple posts below. Like, I mean what I said here, but it nelongs in another argument. Forgive me, i'm exhausted!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 22:48:49 GMT -5
(by the way, kids, just to let you know, I'm going to fade out and go to bed soon. I've been sleeping really badly lately and need to catch up. Rest assured I'll return to annoy you tomorrow.
Seriously, Chrissy, welcome. It's fun to have you. Watch out for Angie. She's pure trouble.
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Post by Angie on Nov 16, 2016 23:06:45 GMT -5
I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm all rainbows and butterfly kisses and shit.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 23:45:49 GMT -5
I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm all rainbows and butterfly kisses and shit. pfft. really, I need to get some sleep! really, I'm going to bed. But I think in my sleepiness I started mushing my threads together! I mean what I said above, but I was smooshing two topics together. oopsie. sorry. seriously, I'm so sleep deprived. Just wanted to call out to Christine and Angie -- I totally get what you're saying. Saying Michelle Obama has no dignity and class IS different from saying it about Trump, because racism underlies it -- it's hard to see how anyone could assert it from anywhere but a racist place. But while I DO think that half of the remark is racist, I think it is a slightly different flavor than the ape in heels comment. The ape in heels one is inherently fucking awful, racist and outrageous, period, said about any human and ESPECIALLY about a black woman because of the history of racism. Period. Nothing could justify it, even if Michelle were not classy, which she is. If they'd left that out, and only said she lacked dignity and class, they'd still, be wrong, still be assholes, and still be being racist. But I think the reason they'd be being racist is because such a statement is utterly unjustified. Despise me if you must, but I think it's possible for a black woman -- like any human being -- to act undignified and classlessly. If she does act in such a way, is it racist to say so? But here, yeah, pretty obviously tge only way you could think that is racism. She invariable behaves with dignity and class, and I defy them to point to a single incident when she didn't. But racists will racist. let's call the fuckers out. so, like, I actually think we agree, more or less. (But in keeping with my derail /thrwad shmooshing point above, I will call out those punching people in parking lots, too.)
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Post by Vince524 on Nov 17, 2016 13:09:57 GMT -5
I think what Rob meant was that these asshats are doing everything they can to live up to the hype of being racists. And they're doing a pretty damn good job. There's no excuse for that.
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