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Post by Vince524 on Jun 9, 2017 18:40:56 GMT -5
I agree with Haggis as well, insofar as: 1) the kids are being judged--by us and others--based on general descriptions of what they did/posted, not on specific things (and that's a problem). 2) I did mean this thread to be about dark/irreverent humor in general, with regard to how it is or isn't acceptable. And per Amadan, I think this Harvard situation reflects a general "one strike" mentality, with regard to people claiming that other people are doing offensive things (which explains and justifies Harvard's actions: appearance matters above all else), with dark humor potentially being one of those things. So again, are there topics about which no joking should ever occur? Because that's what another member of the group said, one who WILL be attending Harvard next year. If one over-the-line meme makes someone "too dumb to live," does proclaiming that some topic are off limits make someone else too narrow-minded and puritanical to live? I mean, think there's a real thing here, with dark humor: sometimes it misses. Doesn't make the person who missed into the scum of the earth, imo. It just means they missed. Now, if they keep on missing to the point that it reflects a mindset... In today's climate on college campuses, I'm very sure this had to do with a faculty that has no backbone and knows if it got out they allowed someone in that participated in something like this in, they'd face a campus sit in, have to set aside half the campus for a safe space with puppies and maybe even a unicorn, and possibly even get sued. This, I believe, is the real reason why these kids got kicked out. And I'll make another prediction. If someone from the group files a lawsuit, that they're being punished for protected speech, and the school feels that the case may have merit, they might fold. So you might yet see one or two of those kids in Harvard come fall. Of course, if you're poor, and can't afford an attorney, you're probably shit of of luck. But justice is just for those who can afford it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 19:11:14 GMT -5
1) how will it be known to the admissions committee of every school when the first school didn't release the names? ...unless the kids were dumb enough to use their real names on the internet for every school in the world to see. In which case, it's up to each school whether it bothers them enough to deny admittance. Frankly, even then -- if the kids work for a year or two, and then write an essay with their application talking about what they learned from the experience, at least some schools would admit them --maybe even Harvard. People with criminal records get into colleges. For pity's sake, they will get in somewhere, though it's possible they might have to work a year. Even were that not the case -- 2) Does every kid need to go to college? As opposed to learning a trade, starting a business, etc.? 1) If they accepted an offer from Harvard, and turned down an offer from say Yale, then would Yale not want to know why? Also, there's a huge difference between choosing to take a year off to work vs being forced to. To have your life plans flushed down the toilet. And if writing an essay would get them into a college, why would Harvard not be able to tell them they were being put on a probation and tell them you must write an essay as put of understanding the reason why this is such a big deal? 2) of course not, but it's usually helpful if you say want to become a lawyer. Are they losing out on thousand of dollars worth of scholarships that they earned because they stayed home and studied more than the 10 wait-listed kids? You can't really think it's no big deal for a kid who has worked hard enough to earn a place in Harvard that they no longer get that spot and instead they should just forgo their dreams of a law degree and instead become a plumber. There's nothing at all wrong with choosing that. In fact, the opposite is true. We put far more value on the idea that you need that college degree. I'm a supporter of the idea that college just isn't for everyone. People think that they're going to go to college and therefore they will get a great job, but often they study shit that has no job opportunities. However, I think it's silly to assume that these kids would be fine just losing out on their life plans. Again, I don't know that Harvard was wrong, but I can't just shrug it off, nor do I think it's easily the only or even best choice they could have made. Kids screw up. Should a screw up like this have what could be life long consequences? Make 'em volunteer to work in a homeless shelter, a rape crisis center, a suicide prevention line. They're a fucking college, try turning it into a teachable moment. I did not give reasons to Harvard when I turned them down for Yale. As far as I know, no one does that. I got several acceptances after Yale -- I simply said "no, thanks." It is fairly common for students to be accepted to colleges and then decide to take a year off. It is also not uncommon to turn down an ivy for another school -- money, scholarships, your boyfriend goes there, etc. You are engaging in some heavy-duty emotional hand-wringing over a completely imaginary situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 19:12:56 GMT -5
And Harvard is not going to get sued for violating "protected speech." Please. They are not the government. And they are allowed to revoke acceptances.
You will recall I am a lawyer. I am not talking out of my ass here. Zero chance these kids would win that suit. If there were, rest assured Harvard would not have revoked the acceptances.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 19:28:54 GMT -5
I will also note -- you and Rob seem to be assuming each kid posted a single one-off joke that was maybe a bit over the top.
My understanding, based on the news reports, is that it was a good bit more egregious than that.
If it makes you guys happy, I would agree that revoking an acceptance for one slightly over-the-top dark joke would be very severe. However, unless reports of this story are very much off, that is not this case.
I am also certain you are greatly exaggerating the effects of this on the kids' futures. Greatly.
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 9, 2017 19:50:06 GMT -5
It's possible that I don't want to give the benefit of the doubt to Harvard because I still feel that they're more concerned over protecting their asses. I think they could get sued, if they had already signed contracts with Harvard. There was a case where a kid was accepted to a school, they then tried to revoke the acceptance after they got a letter from a girl saying he had raped her. The girl wasn't going to college, and the school had no way of investigating the claim whatsoever. The father advised them he was going to sue, and they reversed. But in that case, it was an allegation that the college had no ability to prove, and I believe the kid had already signed a contract. I'm not sure about it here.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 20:01:31 GMT -5
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 9, 2017 20:11:49 GMT -5
I'm a lawyer, what do I know. For whatever it is worth (apparently not much), I am certain Harvard could not be successfully sued here. You may be a lawyer, but I've written about lawyers. Okay, so mostly I kill them off, but still. I think, and I said this from the beginning, that most likely Harvard is within their rights to do so. If sued, they may settle to avoid having to deal with it. They may not. I also think it's possible that there's more to the story than we know. Again, it just might be that I distrust colleges at this point. I also think that while I get why they did what they did. They do want to protect their brand, and to protect themselves from lawsuits. So I doubt they will be sued, although it wouldn't surprise me if someone tried. And again, I also feel that while there probably is little room to argue that Harvard had the right to do it, that doesn't mean it was their only or even their best option. Maybe I'm feeling worse for the kids than I should. Maybe they're not that broken up over it. And maybe I'm just identifying with the kids more than I should. Now, since your a lawyer and all, can you answer a simple legal question for me? I bought something from the store. It didn't work. Shouldn't I get my money back? Does the fact that it was a lotto ticket mean I'm out of luck?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 20:17:54 GMT -5
Now, since your a lawyer and all, can you answer a simple legal question for me? I bought something from the store. It didn't work. Shouldn't I get my money back? Does the fact that it was a lotto ticket mean I'm out of luck? This is not a case for a lawyer. This is a case for Angie. She took care of that little linty-towel issue I had with Bed, Bath & Beyond. Her rates are reasonable, and she supplies her own gasoline and matches.
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 9, 2017 20:19:01 GMT -5
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Post by Christine on Jun 9, 2017 20:24:21 GMT -5
I think being a dick and engaging in dark humor are two separate things. This is the thing. I think a lot of people think being disgustingly offensive is virtuous simply because it's a pushback against extreme SJWs. It's just not. There's an art to doing that sort of thing, though it can be done. But it's not simply a matter of "be a dick, 'cuz all those whiny liberals." I don't know what these applicants posted, so I can't say with certainty that they were just being dicks. But the blanket condemnation of Harvard's decision isn't ringing true for me. There is a line that can be crossed, and based on snippets from the OP, I'm inclined to think these students crossed it. If they were actually engaging in dark humor and making valid points, I might change my opinion.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 9, 2017 20:33:53 GMT -5
I will also note -- you and Rob seem to be assuming each kid posted a single one-off joke that was maybe a bit over the top. I'm not. I have no idea of the specifics for each student. I already said as much. But I am assuming--hoping, really--that Harvard dug into this fairly well, that it don't just immediately react. Which again as why I keep saying that I can accept Harvard's decisions, here. But that doesn't mean I think this is the way things should be, that the current state of affairs with regard to dark humor or inappropriate humor is perfectly logical and perfectly fair. I don't think it is. I think many people overreact to such humor, that they go out of their way to be offended, and that such people are far louder than everyone else. And this has tended to create a general climate of fear--to some degree--in this regard. I'd just as soon not see that degree increased. Really, I think I'd like to see it lowered.
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 9, 2017 20:43:18 GMT -5
I think being a dick and engaging in dark humor are two separate things. This is the thing. I think a lot of people think being disgustingly offensive is virtuous simply because it's a pushback against extreme SJWs. It's just not. There's an art to doing that sort of thing, though it can be done. But it's not simply a matter of "be a dick, 'cuz all those whiny liberals." I don't know what these applicants posted, so I can't say with certainty that they were just being dicks. But the blanket condemnation of Harvard's decision isn't ringing true for me. There is a line that can be crossed, and based on snippets from the OP, I'm inclined to think these students crossed it. If they were actually engaging in dark humor and making valid points, I might change my opinion. True. But again, we're talking about kids around 17-18. ish. So sometimes people make jokes they think are funny and their not. Or they're not funny when not in context. I can believe that the memes crossed a line they shouldn't have. But the question is, is this the proper response. I'll admit I can't say it wasn't without more information. I'm not condemning Harvard, but I'm not defending them either.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 20:50:10 GMT -5
it notes right in that article that such contracts are not usual:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 21:01:13 GMT -5
I will also note -- you and Rob seem to be assuming each kid posted a single one-off joke that was maybe a bit over the top. I'm not. I have no idea of the specifics for each student. I already said as much. But I am assuming--hoping, really--that Harvard dug into this fairly well, that it don't just immediately react. Which again as why I keep saying that I can accept Harvard's decisions, here. But that doesn't mean I think this is the way things should be, that the current state of affairs with regard to dark humor or inappropriate humor is perfectly logical and perfectly fair. I don't think it is. I think many people overreact to such humor, that they go out of their way to be offended, and that such people are far louder than everyone else. And this has tended to create a general climate of fear--to some degree--in this regard. I'd just as soon not see that degree increased. Really, I think I'd like to see it lowered. I actually do not disagree with this. And my hunch is that your line and mine for where "dark humor" that should be tolerated ends and vile inappropriate behavior begins is not far apart. For a few reasons, I am betting Harvard didn't just say "oh, someone is offended, off with their heads" in this case. But certainly I have seen people way overreact to some pretty harmless stuff, or to stuff that uses dark humor to make points. I like to think my record for standing up for free speech generally and dark humor in particular is pretty strong. But I do have an issue with stuff that, as Haggis put it, is just vileness masquerading as dark humor. I don't want to see people prosecuted for it, but that doesn't mean there won't be other repercussions. I am thinking this is a case of vileness, and an example of other repercussions.
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