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Post by Christine on Jun 19, 2017 16:19:03 GMT -5
I just heard on the news that he has died, from brain injuries, presumably. Seeing that footage of him crying and in anguish in North Korea, the reports of brain damage -- they were torturing him, right? -- I am so angry, sick, and sad. My question is, what will the U.S. do, if anything?
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 19, 2017 18:26:10 GMT -5
What can they do? I'd like to think somebody would pay for this, but it's another country that will never admit they did anything wrong. I'm open to ideas.
But yeah, it's devastating what this young man went through.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 20, 2017 9:24:25 GMT -5
For point of info, there are still three American citizens being held in North Korea: www.nbcnews.com/news/north-korea/three-americans-still-held-north-korea-following-otto-warmbier-s-n773326Two have not yet seen a trial. The third was sentenced to 10 years for espionage. And he also "confessed." This bullshit has been going on for a long time. Imo, North Korea periodically grabs US nationals and charges them with things like espionage so they can--at some later date--release them to get some "credit." Whomever is in office at the time of course takes credit for securing a given release, but I think it's just the luck of the draw; I don't think anything is actually being accomplished here by State or anyone else (even Rodman). What should the US do? IMO, the US should put its foot down immediately when a citizen is seized, insist on access to the prisoner and some measure of participation in any trial that takes place. If NK refuses, it would amount to an act of war... Yeah, I know, I know, I can't say that. I'm being ridiculous, such would be a huge overreaction. But imo, one of the principal duites of the federal government is to look out for US citizens who are in foreign lands, to protect them and their interests. If it's not doing that, it's not doing its job. So if someone has a better idea here, I'm open to it. |
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Post by robeiae on Jun 20, 2017 10:03:16 GMT -5
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 20, 2017 11:50:14 GMT -5
You can't really believe any confession or conviction as they beat it out of you. As far as Trump, he probably just happened to be sitting in the chair when it happened. My guess, and I could be wrong, is that NK knew the kid was going to die, and figured if they gave him back it would rob us of saying he was killed in their custody.
I don't know why, but some of these things are really getting to me on a very emotional level.
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Post by haggis on Jun 20, 2017 16:09:48 GMT -5
You can't really believe any confession or conviction as they beat it out of you. As far as Trump, he probably just happened to be sitting in the chair when it happened. My guess, and I could be wrong, is that NK knew the kid was going to die, and figured if they gave him back it would rob us of saying he was killed in their custody. I don't know why, but some of these things are really getting to me on a very emotional level. I think that's exactly what happened. I'd certainly like to see a few of his generals stage a coup. Not that I'm suggesting our CIA should get involved or anything. Nope. Not me. |
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Post by haggis on Jun 20, 2017 16:12:30 GMT -5
You can't really believe any confession or conviction as they beat it out of you. As far as Trump, he probably just happened to be sitting in the chair when it happened. My guess, and I could be wrong, is that NK knew the kid was going to die, and figured if they gave him back it would rob us of saying he was killed in their custody. I don't know why, but some of these things are really getting to me on a very emotional level. I think that's exactly what happened. I'd certainly like to see a few of his generals stage a coup. Not that I'm suggesting our CIA should get involved or anything. Nope. Not me. |
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Post by Christine on Jun 20, 2017 17:04:30 GMT -5
You can't really believe any confession or conviction as they beat it out of you. As far as Trump, he probably just happened to be sitting in the chair when it happened. My guess, and I could be wrong, is that NK knew the kid was going to die, and figured if they gave him back it would rob us of saying he was killed in their custody. I don't know why, but some of these things are really getting to me on a very emotional level. Me too. Each time I see the clip of the poor guy bowing from the waist in front of the table, the expression on his face... it was the epitome of suffering. I can't stand it. It's absolutely unacceptable. As far as what to do, I have heard that putting China's feet to the fire, so to speak, is an option. China has some sway here, apparently? Also, sending all NK workers abroad home (the fruits of their labors go to Jong Un and his ilk). More sanctions, stronger sanctions. But I guess then the question is, how would batshit crazy NK dictator respond to these repercussions. Start nuking its neighbors maybe. Jesus. |
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 20, 2017 18:47:59 GMT -5
Would increased sanctions do anything? I just don't see a way, without going to war, that there will ever be justice for Otto Warmbier. And of course, if we did that, how many more innocent people would die? You can't go to war over a single man, but dammit, someone should pay for the destruction of this young man.
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Post by Christine on Jun 20, 2017 19:12:45 GMT -5
For Jong Un, I doubt sanctions would work. Maybe if they were global, if every other country in the world was against NK, if he were shut out completely... but because he's apparently irrational, there's danger to SK and others in those sorts of maneuvers, from what I understand. (I'm really just regurgitating what I've heard, I claim no knowledge.)
As far as war, yeah, so many more innocent people would die. Also unacceptable.
It's kinda like the shitty driver who, while speeding, cuts you off in traffic, almost causes an accident, and scares the shit out of everyone: he totally deserves a ticket--to have his license revoked even--but you just take it because there's nothing you can do in that moment. Oh, and he has a shotgun. And there's no such thing as Highway Patrol.
Okay it's like that but times a billion, plus one dead and three imprisoned family members.
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Post by Optimus on Jun 20, 2017 19:31:53 GMT -5
Part of me thinks that NK did this in order to provoke a military response, so that they can finally have the glorious victory in war that their propagandists have hyped up for years.
Warmbier's brain damage apparently was due to hypoxia, and I read that medical examiners speculate that NK put him in an oxygen deprivation tank to torture him.
Sigh, reminds me of this from The West Wing:
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Post by michaelw on Jun 21, 2017 2:02:01 GMT -5
For point of info, there are still three American citizens being held in North Korea: www.nbcnews.com/news/north-korea/three-americans-still-held-north-korea-following-otto-warmbier-s-n773326Two have not yet seen a trial. The third was sentenced to 10 years for espionage. And he also "confessed." This bullshit has been going on for a long time. Imo, North Korea periodically grabs US nationals and charges them with things like espionage so they can--at some later date--release them to get some "credit." Whomever is in office at the time of course takes credit for securing a given release, but I think it's just the luck of the draw; I don't think anything is actually being accomplished here by State or anyone else (even Rodman). What should the US do? IMO, the US should put its foot down immediately when a citizen is seized, insist on access to the prisoner and some measure of participation in any trial that takes place. If NK refuses, it would amount to an act of war... Yeah, I know, I know, I can't say that. I'm being ridiculous, such would be a huge overreaction. But imo, one of the principal duites of the federal government is to look out for US citizens who are in foreign lands, to protect them and their interests. If it's not doing that, it's not doing its job. So if someone has a better idea here, I'm open to it. Well, if State has limited clout here, then I'm not sure why insisting on access is going to accomplish anything. And right or wrong, this has just not been the typical approach, as far as I can tell. State essentially told Frank Amado that he could go fuck himself, for example, even though he could be facing a firing squad in Indonesia. I don't expect this kind of attitude is going to be reversed anytime soon. |
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Post by robeiae on Jun 21, 2017 6:49:22 GMT -5
[Well, if State has limited clout here, then I'm not sure why insisting on access is going to accomplish anything. When I say refusal would be an act of war, I actually mean refusal would be an act of war. "Or elses" need to have follow through or they're pointless, imo. This particular situation is--again--one that's been allowed to fester for a long time. It's not unlike the game China plays when they do things like steal US drones. This all reminds of a line from one of the worst movies of all time, Nothing But Trouble: "You've got a BMW. Act like it!" The US has the biggest stick in town. They've had it since the end of WWII (if not before). Yet in the post-Vietnam era, it plays bullshit games with penny-ante dictators like Un. Why? |
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Post by michaelw on Jun 21, 2017 18:11:52 GMT -5
[Well, if State has limited clout here, then I'm not sure why insisting on access is going to accomplish anything. When I say refusal would be an act of war, I actually mean refusal would be an act of war. "Or elses" need to have follow through or they're pointless, imo. Sure, I didn't think you weren't being serious. But to me, going to war for anything less than getting our citizens back should be a total non-starter. If all NK has to do is allow participation in a trial, they could still very well execute whoever they want, right? |
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Post by robeiae on Jun 21, 2017 18:38:09 GMT -5
Well, a public trial with an international presence is probably not something that NK would be anxious to allow. Sure, they could ram through a verdict and sentence with bogus evidence and coerced confessions, but that opens them up to challenges and the like. Plus, it becomes information that they can't control fully, that can filter down into the population. In short, it has the potential to make the leadership look weak. And that remains one of the things they want to avoid at all costs.
Again, Un is a petty-ante dictator whose existence is essentially permitted by the US and other nations (like China). And when such small fries cross lines, there can be hell to pay. Think "Panama," for an actually past-Vietnam example. The US should, I think, draw and enforce such lines. If it did so consistently across time, NK wouldn't be pulling this shit. People like Warmbier would get the smack on the head they probably deserve, then get sent back to the US, not held and tortured for a year a more.
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