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Post by robeiae on Nov 18, 2016 8:49:04 GMT -5
On the Kanye-as-evolutionary-high-point front: www.cnn.com/2016/11/18/entertainment/kanye-west-donald-trump-trnd/index.htmlSo, another "outspoken" celeb who can't be bothered to cast a vote--which apparently doesn't matter to a lot of people, but then most of those people probably shoot their mouths off without voting, as well--sticks his foot in it when he declares some measure of support for Trump. Of course, fans booed, righteous indignation filled twitter, and everyone who once idolized Kanye congratulated themselves for not being Kanye.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 10:37:46 GMT -5
Holy crap. On two different fronts, that astonishes me, although perhaps it should not.
First, the not voting thing -- well, I said it already in the Colin Kaepernick thread. You want to bitch? You want change? Get in there and vote, even if you write in Donald Duck as a protest vote. Yell and scream and complain, too. Write your congressperson. But vote.
Second, voting for Trump. What does it say that this prominent black celebrity -- whom I'm pretty certain is liberal, no? -- would have voted for Trump over Clinton?
Look, I voted (reluctantly) for Clinton, and I do think she's better than Trump, as was Gary Johnson. But you know -- Democrats and the left should freaking stop and think about what this means instead of tearing their hair and whining that "half the country obviously consists of racists because how else could Trump win"?
There's something bigger than that happening here that led our country to elect that orange buffoon. Wake the fuck up and listen. For the sake of all of us, TAKE YOUR FUCKING HEAD OUT OF THE SAND, GET OUT OF YOUR FUCKING SAFE SPACE, AND LISTEN.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 12:11:58 GMT -5
Holy crap. On two different fronts, that astonishes me, although perhaps it should not. First, the not voting thing -- well, I said it already in the Colin Kaepernick thread. You want to bitch? You want change? Get in there and vote, even if you write in Donald Duck as a protest vote. Yell and scream and complain, too. Write your congressperson. But vote. Second, voting for Trump. What does it say that this prominent black celebrity -- whom I'm pretty certain is liberal, no? -- would have voted for Trump over Clinton? Look, I voted (reluctantly) for Clinton, and I do think she's better than Trump, as was Gary Johnson. But you know -- Democrats and the left should freaking stop and think about what this means instead of tearing their hair and whining that "half the country obviously consists of racists because how else could Trump win"? There's something bigger than that happening here that led our country to elect that orange buffoon. Wake the fuck up and listen. For the sake of all of us, TAKE YOUR FUCKING HEAD OUT OF THE SAND, GET OUT OF YOUR FUCKING SAFE SPACE, AND LISTEN.To add to my rant -- Make no mistake -- electing Trump was also a rebuke to the establishment on the right. Me, I happen to think Jeb and Kasich were buckets better in just about every way to Trump: obviously more qualified and more temperamentally suited. But obviously, a boatload of people did not agree. And I don't think they're all saying (as many on the left have apparently concluded) "yeah! we want a racist sexual predator in office so he can hang LBGTQ folks from the lampposts and deport all the Muslims!" Sure, some people are like that -- far more than I wish. But most? I think they're saying they're tired of political dynasties, politicians talking down to them, being disingenuous, making private deals with one another, and writing them off smugly as plebes. And they're freaking pissed. Given the dominance of our two party system (me, I think it's a shame, but most folks think voting for anyone other than someone in the two major parties is a waste), that left them with Trump. Peronally, I despise and deplore Trump, though I'm trying to keep an open mind that maybe he won't be as awful as I fear. I did not sleep the night Trump won --I was that shocked and upset. But I'm starting to get over my shock and moving on to thinking about why. And I honestly think everyone who doesn't love the guy (whether they're on the left, the right, or wherever) needs to be thinking about that. It's making me CRAZY to watch people on the left burrow into their safe spaces and just assume most of the country is racist and bigoted and that's the only reason Trump won and there's no reason to even talk about it and the only safe thing is to hunker down and plug their ears and do exactly what they've been doing -- preach, screech, write off everyone who isn't 150% on board with every last damn thing they say as a racist, ignoramus and buffoon, and bask in feeling superior. No. No. No. Not what we should be doing. I'm not saying to bow your head and go along with it if and when Trump does something you hate. I'm not saying to agree with hateful people and turn the other cheek. Of course not. Get ready to fight, by all means. I sure am. Scream and fight for what you believe in. But for pities' sake, if you want to get your message across, if you want to win, WAKE UP and start thinking about why it is Trump got so much support. Because IMO, it's not why you think.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 12:39:19 GMT -5
If you're out there reading my posts and getting angry? Thinking "this nasty wench has it all wrong?" Come on in and articulate why.
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tanstaafl
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Post by tanstaafl on Nov 18, 2016 14:34:17 GMT -5
Why would anyone be angry for you speaking truths? This was a reaction vote. many many people would and did vote for anyone who was not a "professional politician." I pray for term limits on congresscritters myself. Other places, yeah some individual with blinders on would say negative things. Those that are easily offended, those who demonize anyone who dares to disagree with them. A lot of them had their bubble burst and honestly, it gives me a great deal of internal satisfaction to see it. cancelling a college test and offering "safe spaces" because their preferred candidate lost. Some of these people, IMO have a tenuous contact with the real world, where people have to work and pay bills. Give me a break. One of the most ludicrous things I have seen.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 16:53:21 GMT -5
Why would anyone be angry for you speaking truths? This was a reaction vote. many many people would and did vote for anyone who was not a "professional politician." I pray for term limits on congresscritters myself. Other places, yeah some individual with blinders on would say negative things. Those that are easily offended, those who demonize anyone who dares to disagree with them. A lot of them had their bubble burst and honestly, it gives me a great deal of internal satisfaction to see it. cancelling a college test and offering "safe spaces" because their preferred candidate lost. Some of these people, IMO have a tenuous contact with the real world, where people have to work and pay bills. Give me a break. One of the most ludicrous things I have seen. A lot of people will be pissed off at what I said, T. They'll say to both of us -- with some justice -- you don't know what it's like to be black, Muslim, etc. And damn straight -- I don't. We don't any of us walk in any shoes but our own. But what we can do is try to figure out what the hell happened here. What the hell good does it do to write off every last person who voted for Trump as a lost cause, berate them, and put our fingers in our ears? TRUMP FUCKING WON. That is the sobering truth. And you know what? I know for a fact that many people who voted for him are not racist, not sexist, not homophobes, and do not want to deport all the Muslims. I know for a fact many of them did not particularly like Donald Trump. I know for a fact that many of the people who didn't bother to vote at all are on board with a lot of values the liberals cherish. I disagree with their choice to vote Trump (or not vote), myself. Like I said, I didn't sleep election night. But we need to ask ourselves, all of us who are not happy about Trump, why exactly it is that despite all of that, TRUMP FUCKING WON. Because otherwise, we just spin in a circle and seethe and fret. I cannot for the life of me see the fucking point. To the extent we have values that matter, we need to come together with others who share them -- whomever they voted for. What the holy hell is the point of yelling "you say you're not a sexist, but you voted for a guy who said all kinds of sexist shit." Yeah, I agree with you, actually. I have problems with that, too, from my own standpoint, which is why I didn't vote Trump. But it doesn't get us shit. How about, "you're not sexist/racist/homophobic, so help us support/fight X measure." Agree on what we can. Fight about the rest. And even with those who disagree -- do some talking and convincing instead of insulting and condescending. Yeah, it can be pretty uphill work. Yeah, some folks will never agree. But some will. I've changed a couple of minds on same sex marriage, for example. It can be done. You say it's not worth it? Well, yeah, Trump won. I'd say maybe we need more converts. Sure. Scream and mourn if you must. But if all you do is scream and mourn with other people who agree 100% on everything and shut everyone else the hell out and condemn them as beyond reclamation because they voted for some candidate you don't like, you get NOWHERE. As we have just seen.
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Post by Christine on Nov 18, 2016 21:27:19 GMT -5
Kayne is a dependable douchebag*
*documented since 2009
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 23:44:09 GMT -5
ETA:
This is one of my favorite Obama moments. I've always thought him a very intelligent guy, etc., but I wanted to have a beer with him after seeing this.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2016 19:58:50 GMT -5
Well, yeah, I have to concur with you and Obama -- Kanye is a jackass. But Kanye aside, I do think there are a few messages we can pull from what happened this election.
A lot of people on the left seem to be concluding that the takeaways from this election are that most of the country is racist, sexist, xenophobic, and homophobic, and it's all a massive Whitelash against a black president. I reject that conclusion. Sure, we do have some people like that -- too many. But not nearly enough to give Trump the win. In fact, far from being a whitelash, I think if Obama could have run for a third term, he would have won. He seems pretty damn popular right now.
So what messages do I hear? FWIW:
(1) A buttload of Trump voters, third-party voters, Sanders voters and non-voters on both sides of the aisle sent a general message to both parties -- they're not having any more political dynasties. They want fresh blood. I see that not only in Clinton's defeat, but in what happened to Jeb! Bush.
Both Jeb! and Hillary were (in my opinion) better qualified experience-wise than their competition in the primary. They were both (for their respective sides) reasonably close to the center. And no question, they were both well-funded and the clear favorites of the party establishment. But the Republican voters wouldn't have Bush. And pretty clearly, a lot of Democrats couldn't summon enough interest to get to the polls for Hillary. If Obama's coalition had held, Hillary would have won. It didn't.
I don't see that as a rejection of Obama, whose approval ratings, last I checked, were soaring. I see it as a rejection of Clinton. Part of it, I submit, is that she felt to a lot of people like yet another anointed member of an insider ruling class.
Which brings me to --
(2) Voters who weren't dead sold on Clinton felt like the fix was in, Clinton was being rammed down their throats, and they didn't like it.
OK, I voted for Clinton. To my mind, of the candidates left standing, she would have made the best president. And I might as well add that I also voted for her in the primaries. But you know what? I felt like the fix was in -- and I found it pretty fucking annoying. Obviously, I overcame the feeling (twice), but I totally get how someone else might not if they felt less strongly than I did that she was the best candidate. A lot of things led to this feeling -- E.g., the timing and number of the debates felt like they were geared to favor Clinton and push Sanders down. The revelations that came out of the DNC's emails furthered the impression that the DNC was doing its best to sandbag Sanders. I was never at any point a Bernie Bro, and it STILL annoyed me.
Then, too --
(3) I think the DNC and Hillary fans very much underestimated the suspicion a lot of voters had for Clinton, and their efforts to quash that feeling were ineffective at best and backfired at worst.
Again, I voted for Clinton. I certainly don't think she should be locked up, and I don't think what she did with her emails was for the purposes of some massive nefarious cover-up. But I DO think what she did with the server, the way her team responded to the request for the emails (e.g., doing an electronic search and deleting a buttload of emails), was unquestionably problematic. I say that as a lawyer and a voter. I got over it enough to vote for her. But I think a lot of people didn't.
Then there was the way Clinton, the DNC and Hillary supporters responded. IMO, they should have done from the beginning what Hillary finally did in the second debate -- frankly admit, without hedging, that it was a fuck-up. Admit responsibility. I fucking applauded, all alone in my living room, when she did that at last. If she and her campaign has done that earlier, a lot of voters might have moved the hell on. Instead, what the Hillary campaign and her supporters did is spin. Again and again and again, I heard how she didn't do anything wrong and Colin Powell and a scornful HillaryHatersWillDoAnythingToHateHillary and if you have a problem with the email thing you're clearly a biased closet Trump supporter. Etc. It got so fucking aggravating that I half wanted to vote for someone else. I didn't. But you know? I kinda get why some people did.
Aside from issues with Clinton in particular --
(4) I think the left needs to sell its message better.
Right now? I think too often it comes off as scornful, contemptuous, condescending, shrill, superior, and dismissive of anyone who doesn't agree 150% with every aspect of it. And yeah, that doesn't do much to sell to those who aren't already fully on board. The whole "deplorables" thing is a nice example, but far from the only one. Stuff like that doesn't just turn off alt-right KKK members who would never vote for a center-left candidate. It turns off a shitload of voters in the middle who just might. Telling people they're ignorant racist sexist buffoons is no way to woo them.
(5) The Democrats need to stop ignoring working class whites when wooing voters.
Bill Clinton saw this, but Hillary's campaign ignored him, and though Bill has his faults, it's not wise to ignore him. (I cited an article about this elsewhere in the U.S. politics section.) I'm not saying to blow off minority voters and their concerns -- of course not. But right now? The message a lot of working class whites are increasingly getting is that the Democrats don't give a fuck about them -- they're privileged jerks who can damn well look out for themselves because it's someone else's turn. This doesn't go down so well with people who are barely living paycheck to paycheck. That billionaire pumpkin managed to convince them that he had their interests at heart and the Democrats didn't. And that's a problem.
Perhaps I'm kidding myself, but I don't see a massive national swing to the alt-right in Trump's win. I see a Democratic candidate whom not enough voters on the left felt enthusiastic enough to support, and an over-confident campaign that failed to appreciate it and failed to sell its message effectively to anyone who wasn't already sold.
ETA:
I thought all of this before the election, but I still thought Clinton would win. I thought Trump was so repulsive that far more voters -- the Obama coalition and then some -- would support Clinton despite not being very enthusiastic about her. And yeah, I was wrong. Alas.
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tanstaafl
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Post by tanstaafl on Nov 27, 2016 20:41:25 GMT -5
You are totally correct.I think her "basket of deplorables" was the <cliche> straw that broke the camel's back. She, to half of the country, drove home the point that she really did not give a damn about anything but herself and those acolytes who believed anything she said kept on sipping the koolaide. But those not convinced, were moved to action at the polls and did so.
I have said it before. This was a reaction vote, that many people were tired of profession politicians and political dynasties. The system was followed. There are those, as we speak, who have spent millions trying to change it with the electoral college. If they succeed, prepare for a true, new type of civil war. The nutcases will come fully out on both sides.
They are equally dangerous. We are supposed to be a nation of laws, but if we do not follow the laws, anarchy rules.
It was like when I took people back to court to revoke their probation. I might "know" they had violated, but if I did not have the proof in front of a judge, it meant nothing. It was the worst in domestic violence cases. It is very, very difficult to get a victim to testify against their abuser. No victim, no case.
In this scenario, some will claim the victim is America. In one sense, that is true. I think part of it is shock, in that roughly half of the country assumed from within their bubble that Trump had no chance of winning, zero. That is why there is such a reaction. On another forum, in a poll, only 5 out of 80+ thought Trump would win. In that particular case, if it was a public poll, it would probably have been zero, for other reasons.
None of this has anything to do with Kanye West, but I had to say it.
Like Ohio49er said, Kanye West is an attention whore, just like Al Sharpton, all the Kardashians and many, many others.
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Post by Don on Nov 28, 2016 5:33:06 GMT -5
Well, yeah, I have to concur with you and Obama -- Kanye is a jackass. But Kanye aside, I do think there are a few messages we can pull from what happened this election. A lot of people on the left seem to be concluding that the takeaways from this election are that most of the country is racist, sexist, xenophobic, and homophobic, and it's all a massive Whitelash against a black president. I reject that conclusion. Sure, we do have some people like that -- too many. But not nearly enough to give Trump the win. In fact, far from being a whitelash, I think if Obama could have run for a third term, he would have won. He seems pretty damn popular right now. ... My take on the election is similar. Why the Dems lost in one word: Hubris Why they're looking for any other excuse: Hubris Why they're unlikely to win future elections unless they wake up: Hubris You can literally see the pride and excessive self-confidence dripping from every word of every apologia. It can't possibly be The Candidate or The Party or The Platform. Those are unassailable. It must be the knuckle-dragging, anthropological throwbacks who don't have the intelligence or feelz to appreciate the Real Truth as handed down from Hillary on High. And they can only continue to believe that if they ignore facts in evidence, like Obama's current popularity. Nowhere are the parallels between religion and politics so obvious as in the reaction of the Church of Hillary to her defeat. You'd think somebody just shot the Pope. And the True Believers' smugness and disdain for those who have not seen the light is still chasing away potential church members, when they should be actively recruiting. I'd bet real money that if the election were re-held today, Hillary would gain some votes in the echo chambers of the coasts, yet lose much, much bigger across the rest of the country. Denial: It's not just for climate skeptics anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 10:59:35 GMT -5
Huh. On the one hand, you reject my opinion that Hillary should have done more to court white working class voters as "inaccurate." On the other hand, you say that Hillary's race problem was that the "white race abandoned her in droves." Well, assuming your latter contention were true, it seems to me that the thing to do if you want to actually win the election would be to do more to win voters who abandoned you in droves. But never mind. In fact, it isn't so much that the white race abandoned her in droves as that everyone did, including voters of color. Well, perhaps not in droves exactly, but just enough to spin this election for the moldering pumpkin. This was an election where White people chose an inexperienced and unqualified man over a experienced and qualified woman [snip] No, it isn't. As I break down below, this is an election in which every racial group voted just a little bit less for Clinton and a little bit more for Trump than they did for Obama vs. Romney in 2012, and in which a lot of people were too damn disgusted to vote for either candidate. White voters didn't flock to the Republican side and reject the Democrats as compared to what than they did in 2012 any more than any other racial group. Indeed, it appears they did it a little bit less. The question is "What did Blacks, Latinos and Asians know about Trump that White people didn't know or didn't care about?" Blacks, Latinos, and Asians voted pretty much the way they usually do in presidential elections over the last couple of decades -- overwhelmingly for the Democrat. But actually (and amazingly), they voted for Trump in greater percentages than they did Romney. Per the CNN link I cited above: Asian voters apparently liked Clinton less than Obama, too. You contend that "Hillary's race problem was with the White race who abandoned her in droves." Well, let's take a look at that. Looking at the numbers, Whites didn't flock to Trump in greater numbers than they did Romney. In fact, the reverse is true. True, according to the CNN link, Clinton won 2% less of the white vote than Obama did. But Trump also got a smaller share of white votes than Romney did. So where'd all the voters go, if they didn't flock to Trump? A handful went to third parties. And it looks like a lot of people just weren't motivated to get their asses out there to vote. Voter turnout was at the lowest point in two decades. Looking at these numbers, I don't see White folks flocking to Trump and people of color championing Clinton -- at least not any more than they usually do in presidential races, and indeed less than they did in 2012. Given that Trump's numbers were down, too, compared to 2012, I'd say this is more about voters -- of every race -- finding Clinton an even worse alternative (to Trump!), and being pretty damn disgusted with both candidates. It's not pro-Trump so much as anti-Clinton and anti-establishment. The coalition that elected Barack Obama twice isn't dead. It's just not transferable to a lifetime politician who can't offer herself up as a "change" candidate. Obama could and Trump could but Clinton could not. Here, I agree with you. But I noted that in my first point -- it's why Jeb! didn't sell, and it's why all Clinton's experience (and all her campaign spending) and all of Trump's loathsomeness couldn't make voters flock to Clinton. People wanted fresh blood, and they said it loud and clear. Throwing people of color overboard to win a few more White votes is not the Democratic Party's path back to power. It will only hasten their slide into permanent minority party status and political obsolescence. And it should. I never suggested doing this. In fact, I specifically stated that the Democratic party should not abandon people of color and should continue to address their concerns. This is not incompatible with recognizing that a buttload of working class whites are also struggling and to present the Democrat's plan as one that will help them, too. ETA: Note that I put "not courting white working class voters" down as my factor number 5 (though I'd put "not actively insulting them" much higher on the list). True enough, had Blacks and Latinos been as sold on Clinton as they were on Obama, Clinton would likely have won. But will any white candidate be able to muster quite the overwhelming enthusiasm from people of color Obama did? Perhaps I'm a cynic, but I think not. If I'm right, a white candidate needs to appeal to a broader group -- or at least not turn off a broader group. Working class whites used to like Democrats better than they do now. Surely it's possible for Democrats to sell their message to working class whites better than they are currently doing. One more thing. While it's true telling people they're ignorant racist sexist buffoons is no way to woo them, when they actually are ignorant racist sexist buffoons voting for an ignorant racist sexist buffoon, why would you WANT to woo them? Well, yes, when people actually are ignorant racist sexist buffoons, it's uphill work reforming them. But what I see liberals and Democrats doing -- and what I see you doing in this statement -- is assuming that all of the people who voted Trump (or failed to vote Clinton) -- or at least the vast majority of them -- are ignorant racist sexist buffoons. I reject this assumption. I see a buttload of other reasons people voted for Trump or failed to vote Clinton. But when Democrats fail to acknowledge and address those reasons, and instead just dismiss all Trump voters as ignorant racist sexist buffoons, they are doubling down on the problem. The voters not only remain unsatisfied and unconvinced about the Democratic candidate, but also are pissed off at being sneered at as deplorables. The way the Democrats and liberals played this one pretty much came off as not just condemning racism and sexism (which they should of course continue to do). Rather, they came off as dismissing a whole boatload of people as racists and sexists merely because they weren't totally sold on Clinton. Hell, I got some of that, too, and I know how it pissed me off. Only I got over it. A lot of people didn't. If Democrats want to win next time, they need to try an approach that neither throws minority voters under the bus nor turns off millions of white working class and middle class voters. Obama managed it. Bill Clinton managed it. Someone else can manage it, too. But this year's campaign certainly didn't.
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Post by robeiae on Nov 30, 2016 11:13:36 GMT -5
Clinton should have campaigned harder in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. It's as simple as that. If she had done so, she might have won, either from getting more minority voters or from getting more white voters. Or both. And let's not forget the "younger voters" demo. That probably hurt her the most. The problem was, Clinton and her team--and many of her supporters--accepted the media narrative that she just couldn't lose.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 11:19:58 GMT -5
Clinton should have campaigned harder in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. It's as simple as that. If she had done so, she might have won, either from getting more minority voters or from getting more white voters. Or both. And let's not forget the "younger voters" demo. That probably hurt her the most. The problem was, Clinton and her team--and many of her supporters--accepted the media narrative that she just couldn't lose. Rob, you're no fun at all. ETA: Seriously, though -- I agree Clinton should have campaigned harder in those states. And I agree that a huge problem was the Clinton campaign's "we can't possibly lose" mentality. I admit after the debates and the pussy-grabbing video, I went there, too (which is part of why I'm putting so much effort into dissecting it now).
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Post by Amadan on Nov 30, 2016 13:35:07 GMT -5
I think your analysis is inaccurate in so many ways and not the least of which is the only mention of race is how Democrats need to win back the White working class. This was an election where White people chose an inexperienced and unqualified man over a experienced and qualified woman, including some 53 percent of White women, so that's a strong indication that it's not only men who rejected Hillary Clinton based on her gender, women followed suit. Hillary won Latinos, Asians and Blacks, especially Black women, but she didn't win them by the kind of numbers Obama did or generate his level of enthusiasm and support. Hillary's race problem was with the White race who abandoned her in droves. The question is not "What do Democrats do to win back Trump voters?" The question is "What did Blacks, Latinos and Asians know about Trump that White people didn't know or didn't care about?" The coalition that elected Barack Obama twice isn't dead. It's just not transferable to a lifetime politician who can't offer herself up as a "change" candidate. Obama could and Trump could but Clinton could not. One more thing. While it's true telling people they're ignorant racist sexist buffoons is no way to woo them, when they actually are ignorant racist sexist buffoons voting for an ignorant racist sexist buffoon, why would you WANT to woo them? Throwing people of color overboard to win a few more White votes is not the Democratic Party's path back to power. It will only hasten their slide into permanent minority party status and political obsolescence. And it should. You can put all the blame on white people (which as long as whites continue to make up a majority of votes, you'll be able to do regardless of the outcome), but Trump actually did better with blacks and Hispanics and worse with whites than Romney did. He did poorly with all of them, as any Republican candidate will, but the narrative that he was singularly horrible when it comes to racial demographics in voting doesn't hold up. It's also possible to acknowledge that white votes still matter without "throwing people of color overboard." It is a numbers game. All elections are. So yeah, losing X non-white votes to gain (Y > X) white votes might, in fact, be the correct strategy. Whether it's a moral strategy is an entirely different question, since it depends on what you're doing to move those votes.
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