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Post by robeiae on Nov 19, 2016 14:08:45 GMT -5
I'm a firm believer in the idea that people should get to live their lives as people, should not have to endure criticisms or the like when that is what they are doing. If I saw Hillary Clinton having dinner at a restaurant with her family, or maybe taking in a movie, the last thing I would ever do is lecture her or otherwise seek to tell her what I thought about her. This would be no less true if I was her server or was selling her tickets. So yeah, I'll fault people for this type of stuff. YMMV.
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Post by Christine on Nov 19, 2016 15:20:17 GMT -5
But what does Pence think about it? Maybe it *will* work. Maybe it is another chip away at his deplorable stance on LBGT issues. Chip, chip, chip.
Side note, presidents should never, ever use exclamation points. It is extremely undignified. Sad!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 17:34:19 GMT -5
I'm a firm believer in the idea that people should get to live their lives as people, should not have to endure criticisms or the like when that is what they are doing. If I saw Hillary Clinton having dinner at a restaurant with her family, or maybe taking in a movie, the last thing I would ever do is lecture her or otherwise seek to tell her what I thought about her. This would be no less true if I was her server or was selling her tickets. So yeah, I'll fault people for this type of stuff. YMMV. My own personal approach is pretty much the same, for what it's worth. I have a fair number of friends, acquaintances, colleagues, and former classmates who are involved in politics and/or heavily politically connected. At social events, I've met and chatted with a couple of presidents, former presidents, and presidential candidates, at least two supreme court justices, a few governors, and a bunch of congress critters. Indeed, I have a couple of governors and congress critters in my circle of acquaintances, I have friends and/or classmates in the Obama administration, and I will likely have a couple in the Trump administration. That's not counting politicians on the state level, or lower court federal judges, of whom I know several, including some dear friends. What can I say, I went to a fancy-pancy law school and heaps of my classmates and such have gone into politics. Living in NYC, I also see any number of politicians and famous people I don't have a personal connection with on a fairly regular basis. But I do not call them out on their policies at friendly cocktail parties. I don't barge over to their table at restaurants and demand they listen to my views. Many of them have indeed heard from me -- and surely some will now -- about issues I care about. I just don't do it at events where they're there in their private capacity. I write letters, or take opportunities when they're operating in a more official capacity. At least one person closely connected to Trump is going to hear from me soon... That said, this particular call-out doesn't bother me. They aren't me, and the call-out wasn't nasty, IMO. Moreover, if I'm understanding what happened, they waited until Pence was getting ready to leave the theater to do it (as opposed to doing it before the performance and making him and his family uncomfortable during the show). Me, I likely would have written him a letter on behalf of the cast or posted it on a website, or what have you. But they're not me, and I'm not at all inclined to condemn them. If they'd thrown rocks and/or nasty insults, that would be another matter. But I am inclined to shake my head that Trump threw a pissy fit about it instead of taking the opportunity to build a bridge and soothe some fears. Especially when, IMO, he and his supporters did much to stoke some of those fears during the election. If I'd been Trump or Pence, I would have seized that opportunity. ETA: And as I think of it -- the very fact that I have a bunch of personal political connections inclines me to pick and choose where I do my calling-out and confronting. I imagine I'd be uninvited to a bunch of events if I were inclined to confront fellow guests and start haranguing them about issues. It would be rude to my hosts and fellow guests. I'm careful about how I use such influence as I might have, lest I lose it (along with a friends). If, on the other hand, you have a rare chance to speak directly to someone important about something you care about, I can see how you might be inclined to seize it. As long as you're reasonably civil about how you do it -- what "reasonably civil" means is going to depend on circumstances -- yeah, I'm not inclined to condemn it. If the cast had started off the show with "On behalf of the cast, Mr. so-called Vice-President elect, we'd like to say FUCK YOU! YOU'RE NOT OUR VICE PRESIDENT, YOU FASCIST PIG!" I'd call that out as inappropriate and rude. But, yeah, they didn't.
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tanstaafl
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Post by tanstaafl on Nov 19, 2016 23:49:11 GMT -5
I guess I am different. I look at it as Trump defending some of his group (whether that person wanted help or not), and (I)thought nothing else about it. They showed themselves and he showed them right back. Mountain out of a molehill in other words, IMO.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 23:56:18 GMT -5
Well, except...this isn't a high school clique sticking up for each other in the face of an opposing clique. This is our president and vice-president elect, faced with a group of their constituents who are worried about what will happen under their administration, and who did not throw rocks or insults in doing so.
I don't think that what they should be doing is "showing them right back." They should be showing them that "you don't need to worry, we're better than you think we are, and we'll prove it."
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tanstaafl
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Post by tanstaafl on Nov 20, 2016 0:04:57 GMT -5
After the campaign, do you really expect anything different? I know a person at work who was a pain to work with. They made that person a supervisor. They are still a pain...but you can't do that as a supervisor. I advised the ultimate supervisor, The person has not changed and you should not have expected a change in behavior without a lot of work. His base behavior will not change, especially if it hits his "hot button" issues, which I have no idea yet what they are. Many Trump supporters will support what he tweeted without question, because it is true to all his actions to this point.
Many people say that they do not understand his actions. If you visualize the opposite of "political correctness" on steroids, you will come closer to understanding.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 0:19:36 GMT -5
No, you're right, I didn't expect it. I did hope for better, though. And I do think extending a hand and a reassurance would be the best thing for him to do. Certainly, it's what I would have done in his shoes.
I'm trying to picture pretty much any of our recent past presidents in this situation. I can't predict exactly what they'd have done and said. But I can say this -- as different as they all are, I really can't imagine Reagan, Bush Sr., B. Clinton, W, or Obama tweeting out a demand for an apology in this situation. I'll bet most or all of them would have jumped on it and spun it as an opportunity to look good.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 10:33:11 GMT -5
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Post by Don on Nov 20, 2016 14:16:52 GMT -5
Now if he only had a clue what freedom looks like and acts like...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 14:33:40 GMT -5
Well, there's that. But it beats a series of enraged tweets demanding an apology.
Still -- very much a missed opportunity to engage, understand, and reassure.
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Post by celawson on Nov 20, 2016 15:02:44 GMT -5
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Post by Christine on Nov 20, 2016 18:28:33 GMT -5
I'm not seeing bullying. Embarrassing, maybe. Awkward, for sure. But bullying?
I'm honestly trying here. Not getting it.
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Post by Amadan on Nov 20, 2016 18:57:45 GMT -5
After I saw the video, I have to agree that there was no bullying or disrespect. The audience members who booed the VP were being asses, but that was not instigated by the cast, and when the actor gave his speech, he explicitly called for the audience not to boo or be hateful. His speech was perfectly polite and respectful. Sure, I don't doubt Pence felt put on the spot, but that's part of the job.
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Post by haggis on Nov 20, 2016 23:41:16 GMT -5
I'm a firm believer in the idea that people should get to live their lives as people, should not have to endure criticisms or the like when that is what they are doing. If I saw Hillary Clinton having dinner at a restaurant with her family, or maybe taking in a movie, the last thing I would ever do is lecture her or otherwise seek to tell her what I thought about her. This would be no less true if I was her server or was selling her tickets. So yeah, I'll fault people for this type of stuff. YMMV. My mileage varies. In my opinion we have every right, even an obligation, to call out politicians each and every time we have an opportunity to do so if they're deserving of being called out. Pence was, based on his own record and the promises of the new administration. The cast was in no way disrespectful. This is, or should have been, a non issue.
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Post by Don on Nov 21, 2016 7:11:09 GMT -5
Mike Pence has chosen a career dictating to other people how they should live. That means his opinions aren't private; they're potential laws. And people tend to believe in laws, and seek to uphold them, even if they violate their own personal morality.
And damned near everything Mike Pence "believes" shows he understands nothing about reality. Yet he's going to be neck-deep in the process of creating "laws" that will encourage, and quite likely, force millions of people to do what they know in their heart is morally wrong.
If I saw Mike Pence in the grocery store, I'd have choice words for him. If I saw him at a cocktail party, I'd have choice words for him, even if it meant I might not get invited back. If I saw him in a church, I'd have choice words for him, and interrupt the service if necessary to share those words with him.
Fuck. Mike. Pence.
Just to be clear.
ETA: If Mike Pence wants to go back to being a private person, he can jolly well resign. As long as he literally has the power of life and death over those he rules, he's fair game. Anywhere. Today, I'd leave Hillary the hell alone. Two weeks ago, I'd have felt the same way about her.
ETA2: As for "people should get to live their lives as people" I couldn't agree more. Which is precisely why those who believe otherwise, and who are willing to use guns and jails to back up their belief, get absolutely no respect from me. Mike Pence does not believe "people should get to live their lives as people." Hillary Clinton does not believe "people should get to live their lives as people." So why in the world would we extend to them a courtesy they're not willing to extend to us?
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