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Post by Vince524 on Sept 23, 2017 8:07:10 GMT -5
No President of the United States should be calling for someone to be fired because they exercised their 1st amendment rights. Big ass period at the end of that. His #1 job is to uphold and defend the constitution. That's 1 big fail there. The president should not be taking sides on a commercial issue, but referring to this as a 1st amendment issue is a red herring. Fedgov did nothing to limit speech; that's on the team owners. That said, actors on stage who flub their lines are always subject to dismissal. He had a role to play as the uncritical all-American hero, and he intentionally ditched the script. That'll get you fired on any movie set, stage, or news channel in the country. It's a 1st amendment issue to me when the President weighs in. If the NFL has a policy against what Kaepernick did, then fine. He should leave his politics at the door. But it's inappropriate for the President to say this.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2017 8:30:22 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2017 10:32:52 GMT -5
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 23, 2017 13:46:43 GMT -5
Oh, gee, how terrible that a sport that represents the core values of modern American culture is being destroyed by another core value of modern American culture, politics. A sport that ritualizes violence, regularly dips into taxpayer pockets for hundreds of millions to pay for arenas where millionaires play at the expense of the masses, that never return the benefits to the community that are promised, a sport that recruits violent, misogynistic assholes and pays them outrageous sums for exhibiting anti-social behavior, then promotes them as exemplary human beings, and sends a disproportionate number of its participants to an early grave, all while promoting the paradigm of violent competition over peaceful cooperation. Finally, a positive impact of politics on civil society. I find it amazing that of all the sins that commercial football commits against both community and civility, political protest is apparently the only unforgivable one. No President of the United States should be calling for someone to be fired because they exercised their 1st amendment rights. Big ass period at the end of that. His #1 job is to uphold and defend the constitution. That's 1 big fail there. The president should not be taking sides on a commercial issue, but referring to this as a 1st amendment issue is a red herring. Fedgov did nothing to limit speech; that's on the team owners. That said, actors on stage who flub their lines are always subject to dismissal. He had a role to play as the uncritical all-American hero, and he intentionally ditched the script. That'll get you fired on any movie set, stage, or news channel in the country. What a crock of utter bullshit. If your weak-ass metaphor is to rip Colin Kaepernick for taking a knee in protest of police shootings of Black people, you obviously know nothing about the subject. Not that you're going to let your ignorance on the matter slow your roll from farting out an absurd statement proving how little you know. NO president has any goddamn business telling the American people to boycott a private business enterprise. NO president has any goddamn business calling for the firing of private American citizens engaging in a peaceful protest. This is none of Trump's business, but because he cannot resist throwing red, raw chunks of bloody meat to the mouth-breathing idiots that hang on his every word, Trump dares to go where no Chief Executive has gone before. The idiots must be fed and they are eating well. Trump won't do shit for them, but they love him anyway. He puts them darkies in their place. He bashes Kaepernick and Black NFL players harder than he ever bashed the Nazis and Klansmen in Charlottesville. Shut the fuck up, boy and get your Black ass back on that football field. Entertain me! Throw your body around. Make some big hits and kill shots. Destroy your body and your mind. Plenty more where you came from.
The underlying subtext to Trump's words are unmistakable. But you'll never figure it out, Don. Mr. First Amendment. Mr. Free Speech. Mr. Gubberment Iz Baaaaaadddd. Mr. Situational Ethics. Mr. Hypocrite.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2017 14:06:21 GMT -5
Someone said something on Twitter that has me mulling. I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on it.
Why do we play the anthem at sporting events? Why should attending or participating in one require one to (tacitly, at least) affirm one's patriotism?
Take aside the Olympics -- there each athlete is representing his or her country. I'm talking a football game.
Anyway, that issue aside, More or less, I ultimately come down on this one thusly: Kaepernick has the right to express his protest. Team owners has the right to decide whether they want to take him on.
And while Trump might have the right, as all of us do, to give an opinion on all that, the POTUS should have bigger fish to fry. It's also notable that he has harsher words for Kaepernick than for white supremacists, Putin, or Russian hackers.
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 23, 2017 14:27:25 GMT -5
Someone said something on Twitter that has me mulling. I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on it. Why do we play the anthem at sporting events? Why should attending or participating in one require one to (tacitly, at least) affirm one's patriotism? Take aside the Olympics -- there each athlete is representing his or her country. I'm talking a football game. I can't say why the national anthem is played at a sporting event, but the reason why NFL teams stand for it is because since 2009, the league was paid by the Department of Defense to make the players look more patriotic. The NFL doesn't just sell entertainment. They sell beer and cars and iPhones and they sell the flag. It's all about the marketing and getting the suckers to buy in. And it worked. The dogs ate the dog food like the good dogs they are. Play-for-pay patriotism. You can't get more American than that.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 23, 2017 14:50:11 GMT -5
Someone said something on Twitter that has me mulling. I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on it. Why do we play the anthem at sporting events? Why should attending or participating in one require one to (tacitly, at least) affirm one's patriotism? Take aside the Olympics -- there each athlete is representing his or her country. I'm talking a football game. Anyway, that issue aside, More or less, I ultimately come down on this one thusly: Kaepernick has the right to express his protest. Team owners has the right to decide whether they want to take him on. And while Trump might have the right, as all of us do, to give an opinion on all that, the POTUS should have bigger fish to fry. It's also notable that he has harsher words for Kaepernick than for white supremacists, Putin, or Russian hackers. More or less, tradition and the audience it appeals to. I don't see an issue with it. I agree with everything you said, except that as POTUS, he needs to keep in mind he's not a private citizen mouthing off anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 9:15:12 GMT -5
I saw some pundits this morning on Twitter saying that every player who takes a knee helps Trump politically.
You know what? I don't agree. Sure, maybe with his core base, who would love him if he killed someone on Fifth Avenue. But as for the rest of us...
I know that I've become much more sympathetic to Kaepernick and to this quiet form of protest as time has gone on. Trump's bombast makes me more so. There is something about him ranting about a football player taking a knee as a "son of a bitch," especially when he failed to issue such a condemnation for white supremacists who run down people with cars...
It wouldn't surprise me if that's true for many.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 24, 2017 9:49:42 GMT -5
I disagree with Kaepernick and have said so in the past. Trump being Trump hasn't made me feel any better about him, but he has a right to express himself and as POTUS, Trump shouldn't be saying otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 10:25:16 GMT -5
I've moved from "come on dude, respect the flag. protest in some other way and venue" to "well, why shouldn't he protest in this way, what harm is he doing, and heck, he has some valid points, and anyway, why should he be forced to stand? Jehovah's witnesses don't have to do so, right? And why the hell is freaking Trump shooting his mouth off?"
It is a notable, gradual shift in me that was happening even before Trump spoke up.
If they were giving it the finger, by the way, I would not feel this way.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 11:01:53 GMT -5
Great Twitter thread on what is and is not disrespectful to the flag, from U.S. Flag Code Chapter 10.
Spoiler: wearing the flag, putting it on plates and napkins, cushions, etc., laying it flat, using it in any advertisements whatsoever -- all deemed disrespectful. Not mentioned: sitting, standing or kneeling.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 24, 2017 13:12:13 GMT -5
Refusing to stand is different than taking a knee which is different to giving the finger.
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Post by Don on Sept 24, 2017 14:41:18 GMT -5
Oh, gee, how terrible that a sport that represents the core values of modern American culture is being destroyed by another core value of modern American culture, politics. A sport that ritualizes violence, regularly dips into taxpayer pockets for hundreds of millions to pay for arenas where millionaires play at the expense of the masses, that never return the benefits to the community that are promised, a sport that recruits violent, misogynistic assholes and pays them outrageous sums for exhibiting anti-social behavior, then promotes them as exemplary human beings, and sends a disproportionate number of its participants to an early grave, all while promoting the paradigm of violent competition over peaceful cooperation. Finally, a positive impact of politics on civil society. I find it amazing that of all the sins that commercial football commits against both community and civility, political protest is apparently the only unforgivable one. The president should not be taking sides on a commercial issue, but referring to this as a 1st amendment issue is a red herring. Fedgov did nothing to limit speech; that's on the team owners. That said, actors on stage who flub their lines are always subject to dismissal. He had a role to play as the uncritical all-American hero, and he intentionally ditched the script. That'll get you fired on any movie set, stage, or news channel in the country. What a crock of utter bullshit. If your weak-ass metaphor is to rip Colin Kaepernick for taking a knee in protest of police shootings of Black people, you obviously know nothing about the subject. Not that you're going to let your ignorance on the matter slow your roll from farting out an absurd statement proving how little you know. NO president has any goddamn business telling the American people to boycott a private business enterprise. NO president has any goddamn business calling for the firing of private American citizens engaging in a peaceful protest. This is none of Trump's business, but because he cannot resist throwing red, raw chunks of bloody meat to the mouth-breathing idiots that hang on his every word, Trump dares to go where no Chief Executive has gone before. The idiots must be fed and they are eating well. Trump won't do shit for them, but they love him anyway. He puts them darkies in their place. He bashes Kaepernick and Black NFL players harder than he ever bashed the Nazis and Klansmen in Charlottesville. Shut the fuck up, boy and get your Black ass back on that football field. Entertain me! Throw your body around. Make some big hits and kill shots. Destroy your body and your mind. Plenty more where you came from.
The underlying subtext to Trump's words are unmistakable. But you'll never figure it out, Don. Mr. First Amendment. Mr. Free Speech. Mr. Gubberment Iz Baaaaaadddd. Mr. Situational Ethics. Mr. Hypocrite. Fascinating. Nowhere in either of my posts did I rip Colin Kaepernick, and I explicitly stated that the president should not be taking sides on this issue. I have no idea why your tirade was addressed to me, particularly since it's apparent we both disapprove of pay-for-play patriotism and the present course of the NFL.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 14:58:18 GMT -5
I wondered about that, too -- based on posts, I didn't perceive Don to be taking an anti-Colin Kaepernick position on this issue and I did perceive him to be taking the position that Trump should STFU and that pay-for-play patriotism was gross.
(You can also count me among those giving the thumbs down to pay-for-play patriotism. And of course, you can always count me among those who thinks Trump should shut up.)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 15:11:10 GMT -5
Refusing to stand is different than taking a knee which is different to giving the finger. I agree all three are not identical. But increasingly, I am coming to the conclusion that what Kaepernick is doing is okay by me (not that he's asking my permission), and that it is not harmful to the ideals patriotism is supposed to be about. At bottom, to me, he's not opposing his country -- he's opposing the failure to uphold the ideals the flag and anthem are supposed to stand for. Does anyone really think he's dissing, say, soldiers who died for their country or the constitution? I certainly don't think so. The method he has chosen is highly visible and provocative -- and yet it isn't screeching and accusatory, it hurts no one, and it is effective -- at any rate, it has made me, at least, stop and think. It might not be the method I'd choose, but increasingly I get why he chose it and why others are joining him. And if course, Trump's priorities in who he's condemning as being unpatriotic sons of bitches vs "fine people" is whacked, as usual. Hilarious that confederate flags and statues are awesome, but kneeling during the anthem is not.
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