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Post by robeiae on Nov 17, 2017 10:40:49 GMT -5
Holy crap, someone at DU actually doing their homework: upload.democraticunderground.com/10029852049Background: there's a "response" to the Franken groping picture being promulgated on twitter that the photo was staged and that Tweeden agreed to it (Franken has never said this, to be fair). There's no actual evidence, just an unsourced claim from someone who may actually be a Russian bot (see above discussion).
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Post by Amadan on Nov 17, 2017 11:54:05 GMT -5
SNAG (Sensitive New Age Guy) has been a stereotype forever.
AKA the "male feminist."
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Post by Amadan on Nov 17, 2017 11:58:20 GMT -5
Holy crap, someone at DU actually doing their homework: upload.democraticunderground.com/10029852049Background: there's a "response" to the Franken groping picture being promulgated on twitter that the photo was staged and that Tweeden agreed to it (Franken has never said this, to be fair). There's no actual evidence, just an unsourced claim from someone who may actually be a Russian bot (see above discussion). I've gotta be honest, knowing this was from his SNL days, and seeing that picture, I would have assumed it was staged too, and that Leedon was in on it. Hard to imagine it was something he actually did while she was asleep and circulated without her knowledge. But she says it was not staged, and he hasn't claimed it was, so that makes it more of a really, really inappropriate joke he thought was funny at the time. And you know, I get that he can simultaneously consider himself a supporter of women and hold all the right positions on feminism, and also be a former comedian who used to do really cringeworthy stunts that don't look so good now. But yeah, he's a sitting Senator and this shit is catching up to people now, and he deserves the flack he's taking.
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Post by Vince524 on Nov 17, 2017 12:30:05 GMT -5
Man, Franken is taking a beating on this. Though I suppose it's fair that he does. I watched Tweeden on CNN yesterday. One thing she said that stuck with me us that she and her husband ran into Franken a few years ago at some event. Franken greeted her like they were old friends. She said hello and immediately walked away. That's telling, I think. It indicates that Franken, for all his apologies now, is no different than the typical douchebag. Here's Franken's second, longer apology (after he caught heat for the first): www.twincities.com/2017/11/16/al-franken-i-feel-disgusted-with-myself-over-groping-photo-says-ethics-committee-should-investigate-him/Some bits in it: I said that it's fair he's catching so much heat for this because he's like the "family values" politician who gets caught stepping out on his wife, or spending way too much time in airport men's rooms. He really thinks he's a "champion of women." I know a lot of people like Franken, but this stuff kinda confirms what I've always thought about him. I've known guys just like him--sorry to go internet psychoanalysis here, but I just can't help it--who play the role of "super-sensitive guy" to the hilt, who use it to get over on women because it's the only arrow in their quiver (which is my way of saying that it's a complete act, top to bottom). It goes beyond dating and sex; it's the only way they can relate to women and reflects a desperate need for their--the women's--approval. Essentially, Franken is Alan Harper (while I guess Bill Clinton is Charlie Harper). Franken is one of the Senators that supports rules on college campuses that would have a student expelled for the picture alone, let alone the rest of the allegation, regardless of proof.
Also, Kristin Gillibrand has now thrown Bill Clinton under the bus.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/11/17/why-kirsten-gillibrands-bold-statement-that-bill-clinton-shouldve-resigned-is-a-big-deal/?utm_term=.fdfe45d98ce8
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Post by Don on Nov 17, 2017 12:41:46 GMT -5
I've always considered Franken a douchebag. I was amazed so many were taken in by his liberal bullshit. Glad to see him get his just desserts.
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Post by Vince524 on Nov 17, 2017 12:44:25 GMT -5
Yeah, my opinion of Franken hasn't been lowered all that much.
My opinion of Roy Moore has, which is saying something as I thought he was an ass before the sex scandal stuff.
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Post by robeiae on Nov 17, 2017 13:40:39 GMT -5
I've gotta be honest, knowing this was from his SNL days, and seeing that picture, I would have assumed it was staged too, and that Leedon was in on it. Hard to imagine it was something he actually did while she was asleep and circulated without her knowledge. Well, I never thought it looked staged. But I have to admit that twenty or thirty years ago, I may thought there was nothing wrong with the pic. But to be clear here, the pic is from 2006, which is during Franken's Air America days, right before he ran for the Senate. He effed up royally and it's kinda surprising that this never caught up with him before, actually. Seriously, that pic could have sunk him in 2008. It's not like he win in a landslide...
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Post by Amadan on Nov 17, 2017 13:54:10 GMT -5
I've gotta be honest, knowing this was from his SNL days, and seeing that picture, I would have assumed it was staged too, and that Leedon was in on it. Hard to imagine it was something he actually did while she was asleep and circulated without her knowledge. Well, I never thought it looked staged. But I have to admit that twenty or thirty years ago, I may thought there was nothing wrong with the pic. But to be clear here, the pic is from 2006, which is during Franken's Air America days, right before he ran for the Senate. He effed up royally and it's kinda surprising that this never caught up with him before, actually. Seriously, that pic could have sunk him in 2008. It's not like he win in a landslide... I think a lot more of those pictures, "gags," inappropriate comments, advances, propositions, wandering hands, etc., are going to be coming back to haunt people in the post-Weinstein era.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2017 14:00:19 GMT -5
(1) I never loved Franken, nor did I particularly hate him. I don't really have a fish to fry when it comes to Franken, one way or the other.
(2) I think the photo is juvenile, obnoxious, and demeaning as all hell.
(3) I do not doubt her assertion about the kiss, and that incident is yucky as all hell.
(4) Damn straight he should be apologizing for both things.
(5) An ethics hearing is justified. We'll see whether there are other/worse incidents out there.
All that said:
(1) Though the photo is juvenile, obnoxious, and demeaning, and I am NOT excusing it, this I must say: it does not look like he's actually grabbing her breasts. He's standing too far away from her -- I'll bet his hands are at least a foot from her. What he did, I think, is pose in front of her in a manner designed to look like he was grabbing her breasts, as a sophomoric attempt at a joke. Long ago, a guy friend did a similar thing with me -- my back was turned, and he posed as though he was grabbing my ass, when in fact he was not touching me. Because he was a friend and I knew him well, I just rolled my eyes when I saw the picture. But it's a really piss-poor idea to do something like that if the woman is NOT your good friend and you're not absolutely 150% certain she's going to roll her eyes and laugh.
But I have to point out that I'm pretty sure he's not actually touching her because though I think the photo is both demeaning and offensive, and definitely not OK, it's not actually sexual assault if he's not touching her. The forced kiss, on the other hand...
(2) It's a false equivalence to compare this to Moore, both because Moore's victims were underage, and because Franken is at least stepping forward to take responsibility for his actions.
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Post by robeiae on Nov 17, 2017 14:12:07 GMT -5
I agree that this doesn't track at all as a comparison to Moore. Moore is denying everything. And Moore's actions seem much worse, imo.
But...Franken IS denying that the kiss happened the way she said it happened, ala "I remember it differently," so he's not stepping up all the way. In fact, one could see it as him admitting to the non-assault action, thus avoiding consequences for the actual action that could be seen as pure sexual assault (I think grabbing the back of someone's neck and sticking your tongue down their throat in such a situation qualifies as such, and I think Franken did it because he was thinking that he had a chance to sleep with her while on this tour).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2017 14:17:05 GMT -5
I agree that would qualify as sexual assault. And yes, it's quite possible that's exactly what Franken is doing with his apology. And yeah, you're right -- he didn't step all the way up to the plate when it came to the forcible kiss. At least he isn't accusing her of being an outright liar, I suppose. Surely we must have some men in office somewhere who don't think it's cool to manhandle women. Right?!
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Post by robeiae on Nov 17, 2017 14:22:25 GMT -5
It may seem that I kinda have it in for Franken, and I guess that's probably because I kinda have it in for Franken...
But I really think he's full of crap, top to bottom. I think his whole "champion of women" stuff is totally insincere on his part. He may not be the worst person on the planet and he may have never stolen a freight train, but I just think he's awful, and I'm happy to see him burned down, if it comes to that.
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Post by robeiae on Nov 20, 2017 11:59:56 GMT -5
I... don't believe it: Tambor has denied all the claims against him. And I admit to my own double standard here, because right now, I believe him. That said, my belief is hardly evidence, and I may have to change my tune. But for me, of all the high profile accusations out there right now, this is--by far--the hardest one to accept.
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Post by Vince524 on Nov 20, 2017 13:11:35 GMT -5
Another woman on Franken. www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.htmlBasically, she wanted a picture with him and when they posed he put he hand on her ass, according to her. No way to prove or prove this, and no law was broken. If true, certainly icky. He issues the same, I don't recall sort of statement, but here it's certainly believable that he doesn't remember. It was 7 years ago. The article mentions that the pic is on her facebook page. So on the one hand, you have a consistency in that she did claim this back then. (Assuming the date of the response matches up. On the other hand, if I were creeped out by being felt up by someone while taking a picture with them, would I display it on Facebook? IDK.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 14:07:58 GMT -5
I am going to take a yuuuuge risk here and announce that I'm not on team "believe the woman no matter what." Sue me. I'm not. I'm on team "lean towards believing the woman if her account seems reasonably believable." It's the lawyer in me. I cannot help dissecting a story. I usually believe the woman. I know that guys who seem like good guys do this shit. And I have no trouble believing Franken did. I actually do believe Franken gave that yucky forcible kiss, for example, and I believe he'd grab an ass. But something about this latest accuser's account is off. Here's what she says happened. Three or four seconds is a loooong time in this context. It's not a fleeting grab. Stop for just a minute and imagine this happening, counting off three seconds. That's a long time to stand there in front of your husband and father with someone guy's hand on your ass while smiling. If you look at the photo, she's not just smiling, her smile is all the way to her eyes and she looks relaxed. That's not a strained smile. It's a genuine smile. So either he's not grabbing her ass as the photo is taken -- or if he is, she is really, really putting up one hell of a good front. And why would she do that? She is not a vulnerable child or someone who depends on Franken's support for her career or something that might explain her not reacting to such a blatant affront. (I would actually understand it under those circumstances -- especially if she were a young girl. If it were a 15 year old girl telling this story, I would believe it.) And she's not alone. Her husband is taking the photo and her father is there. So let's explain the relaxed smile by assuming that he grabbed her ass a split second after her husband snapped the picture. That means, if her account is accurate, that after the photo was snapped, she stood there for three or four seconds that close to him with his hand cupping her ass without pulling away or showing any reaction that her husband noticed. Seriously, WTF, why would she not only say nothing, but stand there grinning, without pulling away, for three-four seconds after the photo was snapped while he's doing such an outrageous thing? And in front of her husband? Neither her husband nor her father saw his hand on her ass. They say she told them about it afterwards, but somehow her husband, staring straight at them, managed to miss seeing Franken's hand on her ass for that long a period of time. I don't buy that. What I CAN buy is that Franken might have given her butt a quick pat or a squeeze just after the shutter clicked. Maybe that's what happened. But three-four seconds -- naah. Don't get me wrong. It's just as awful on Franken's part if he just gave her butt a quick squeeze. But if her account sounds wrong in one significant way, I start to doubt the rest of it. It's just the way I am. I'm not ready to throw rocks at her as a liar, mind you, but I'm also not ready to champion her.
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