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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 8:47:30 GMT -5
No voice here has been "squelched" from expressing a point of view unless that point of view was what a jerk another member was.
I, like Amadan, have experienced private mod slaps used to silence me from simply expressing a dissenting viewpoint. Done secretively like that, the rest of the forum doesn't know. They know only that a voice dropped out.
Making it private doesn't reduce bias. It hides it. And in doing so, encourages it.
Also, here there is no way to send a private mod note except by writing a time-consuming PM pointing to the thread and starting a dialogue about it every time someone is a jerk.
I will not do it that way, period.
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Post by Vince524 on Nov 8, 2017 11:26:19 GMT -5
No voice here has been "squelched" from expressing a point of view unless that point of view was what a jerk another member was. I, like Amadan, have experienced private mod slaps used to silence me from simply expressing a dissenting viewpoint. Done secretively like that, the rest of the forum doesn't know. They know only that a voice dropped out. Making it private doesn't reduce bias. It hides it. And in doing so, encourages it. Also, here there is no way to send a private mod note except by writing a time-consuming PM pointing to the thread and starting a dialogue about it every time someone is a jerk. I will not do it that way, period. I hear candy grams are popular.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 11:42:27 GMT -5
I'd like to implement giant rubber mallets, but that option isn't available on the free version of the forum.
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Post by nighttimer on Nov 8, 2017 12:23:00 GMT -5
No voice here has been "squelched" from expressing a point of view unless that point of view was what a jerk another member was. I, like Amadan, have experienced private mod slaps used to silence me from simply expressing a dissenting viewpoint. Done secretively like that, the rest of the forum doesn't know. They know only that a voice dropped out. Making it private doesn't reduce bias. It hides it. And in doing so, encourages it. Also, here there is no way to send a private mod note except by writing a time-consuming PM pointing to the thread and starting a dialogue about it every time someone is a jerk. I will not do it that way, period. How you do whatever you do as a mod is a matter between you and robeiae. However, if you are going to introduce your previous bad experiences from other places here, then you've opened the door for everybody else to play too. I have experienced having a point-of-view squelched by moderators who were too quick on the trigger, too p.c., too sensitive, too biased, too something to handle their responsibility in a responsible way. Ripping someone a new asshole is best done one-on-one and privately so it doesn't become a public shitshow, but that's just my opinion. As far as a PM being "time-consuming," so is writing a public mod slap. It all depends on how one feels their time is best spent. I consider my experiences as equally valid as yours or Amadan.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 12:27:31 GMT -5
Another thing I personally will never do, by the way? I will never delete a member's post unless it is unquestionably a pure troll post (e.g., spewing racial slurs).
As a rule, I think it best to leave the member's words and the mod rebuke in the open. My belief is that actually encourages a mod to think about whether they are getting pissed off because they disagree with a viewpoint or whether a member is in fact violating a forum rule. Our action is out in the open, as is what provoked it. To the extent a mod is simply being a jerk, that should be clear to everyone on the forum. Ditto if it is the member being a jerk.
What is more conducive to fairness -- the Stasi secretly dragging people off and threatening them behind closed doors, or public trials as guaranteed by our Sixth Amendment? Okay, yes I know that we are just a little message board, and that's a bit of hyperbole. But my point is this: openness encourages jackboot accountability, IMO. And it encourages everyone to own their words -- and hence make their words something they are willing to own.
Rob may have a different theory. But that's what I will do so long as it pleases Rob to keep me as a moderator. As always, I serve at his pleasure.
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Post by Amadan on Nov 8, 2017 13:55:59 GMT -5
I consider my experiences as equally valid as yours or Amadan. I said I had mixed feelings, not that I think your experience is invalid. I don't think, as a general rule, that mods should be publicly castigating members. But publicly saying "Don't do this" is fine. I've seen boards where members who get suspended or banned simply disappear, boards where a thread is maintained detailing who got temp or permbanned and for what, and boards where members who get suspended or banned get cute labels attached to their accounts saying what they did or what the mod who banned them thinks of them. I like the latter policy the least.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 14:12:56 GMT -5
As do I, which is why I will never do it.
You are all free to judge me for being arbitrary and unfair -- it will at least be in the open. I think that's much better than leaving a question out there as to whether maybe a member actually did something reaaaaaaallly awful behind the scenes to get banned as a troll, when in fact it was just that the poster's argument stuck in the mod's craw.
To note: When I mod, I either do a general note for everyone to tone it down, or if I direct it to a member, I try to say what is wrong with a member's words and why they violate the forum's rules. Which, actually, is pretty much what I do as a member, except that I'm not telling them they have to stop when I do it as a member.
Also note: I am NOT going to change how I do this. I have very strong feelings about why it is the better policy. If Rob thinks I'm wrong, he can always de-mod me.
I'm a big believer in everyone owning their words and actions.
ETA:
It's possible a poster could do something modslap-worthy or banworthy that is entirely behind the scenes -- e.g., personal attacks in PMs. In that event, my own inclination is to leave both the act and the mod action behind the scenes, not drag them into the forum.
There, however, I am not quite as stubborn, and Rob could possibly convince me I'm wrong.
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Post by robeiae on Nov 8, 2017 16:19:14 GMT -5
Aside from me deleting a nighttimer post on multiple occasions, I don't think there's been any over-modding by either myself or Cass.
Re public v. private: my feeling is that public spankings are okay to an extent. Really, once a mod steps into a thread, there shouldn't be any back and forth. "Stop it" is enough. Again, we're all adults here.* If a member thinks a mod is being unfair or maybe missing something, the member should probably then take the exchange private. That would be the best play for the board, at any rate.
* I contemplated a rule to the effect of "once a mod makes a decision, there's no arguing about it," but frankly I don't really want to make that rule, because it just seems too...elementary.
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Post by Christine on Nov 8, 2017 19:40:49 GMT -5
Aside from me deleting a nighttimer post on multiple occasions, #metooonce And a private conversation ensued, and while there was not a meeting of the minds, it was at least between us and gave me something to think about. Personally, I disagree. Case in point: the description as being "a public spanking" has a humiliating tone to it. The idea that mods aren't going to be fair in private is a red herring, I think. Yes, probably most of us have experienced that on other boards, but that isn't because private conversations lead to mods being unfair as a matter of course. It depends on the mod. I have faith that both rob and Cass are good people, and fair. They're not going to morph into completely different people in private conversations. When it comes to personal digs, I agree that "STOP" can be helpful. But as I stated previously, and NT has at least alluded to, *when* a mod steps in is sometimes telling. Like, personal shit can be hitting the fan, but then one poster posts a response to something personal, and another complains that it's "personal," and the mod agrees with the complaint, and the timing is like.... wut. When I recently pointed this out, I can understand why it seemed like I was ignoring the mod note, trying to reignite the war (though I was not). It was the timing of it all and I wanted to point that out. It's not that I think people should be free to spew personal digs back and forth (actually, I do think that, but why I do is a different subject, and irrelevant--see forum rules). It's just that there is sometimes favoritism, from what I can see. I understand that at the end of the day, when a mod says "STOP" everyone is supposed to stop, even if they view the mod intervention as unfair or biased. Regardless, I have a hard time overlooking stuff like that, as my recent timeout has evidenced. Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 20:03:43 GMT -5
OK. So
1) Use. The. Report. Button.
You don't want to use it? Fine. You don't have to. But then don't complain about when a mod gets to the argument. Rob and I do not hover in real time over everyone's posts. I know, amazingly lax, but we don't.
2) If you retaliated and got personal in response to a remark you took personally, don't complain when you get modslapped.
3) Just because someone is butthurt about what someone said doesn't make it a personal attack. Sorry, it doesn't.
A remark can be abrasive, include curse words, rip your words to shreds, have an angry tone and STILL not qualify as a personal attack.
The test isn't that the recipient took it personally.
4) don't ignore mod notes so you can get in your own shot at someone in the thread. Just don't.
This isn't third grade. It's an adult forum with adult rules.
I'm actually not sitting around keeping a score board over who got in how many shots at whom. I see "huh, that thread is devolving into stupid. I'mma step in with the whistle."
Which is why most of my mod notes are along the lines of "no more of that, please and thank you."
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Post by Christine on Nov 8, 2017 20:17:09 GMT -5
1) I don't "tell" on members, because we're all just members, and no one has any power over anyone else. It's all fair game, imo. (And yes, you do hover. Your timing is impeccable. Like now.)
2) N/A
3) I'm not talking about any such things. Sorry, I'm not. When shit gets personal and has nothing to do with the argument, you know it. I know it. Everyone fucking knows it. The issue is, again, *when* mods step in.
4) No, it's more like high school. Third grade was a friendly place.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 20:26:01 GMT -5
I do not plan to change my modding style.
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Post by Vince524 on Nov 8, 2017 20:27:02 GMT -5
I'm fine with the public rebukes, as long as they're not coming out of nowhere, and they're not just for the sake of bashing. Also, if Cass or Rob say something public against a member and I disagree, I can always publicly support the poster that was rebuked.
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Post by Vince524 on Nov 8, 2017 20:27:23 GMT -5
Oh, and it let's us know where the line is.
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Post by mikey on Nov 8, 2017 20:42:49 GMT -5
Forget about lines, I want to hear more about spankings. ( Did I say that out loud?)
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