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Post by Optimus on Nov 18, 2017 17:18:46 GMT -5
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Post by Vince524 on Nov 18, 2017 19:11:44 GMT -5
It's a version of the 'lady doth protest' too much syndrome. I do wonder about the self loathing part.
If, in say 5 years this man were to announce he's running again, after he's officially come out. His stances have changed and he's gone through what he bills as a lot of personal introspective, counseling, etc, would people be willing to forgive?
Or will they view it as self serving? Was his anti LGBT stance self loathing, something to be pittied as much as decried, or was it what was most convenient and pandering to the lowest common denominator.
Perhaps a bit of both?
I don't expect anyone here will be able to answer since none of us know him personally. Hell, I never heard of him until this. But it's a question, isn't it?
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Post by Don on Nov 19, 2017 5:53:17 GMT -5
The whole sordid mess reminds me of politicians who rail against economic inequality while getting paid off to make both their corporate pals, and themselves, richer. It's as pure a form of hypocrisy as this sexual malpractice, IMO, but it doesn't keep them from getting reelected. See also: Bernie Sanders, Nancy Pelosi, the AlGore, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 10:24:58 GMT -5
To Vince's point -- I might be able to sympathize with the self-loathing, were it not for the fact that the self-loathing dude used his platform to make life more difficult for other LGBT people.
Even if I could still summon up a tiny violin for him as a human (and frankly, not really), I sure as hell would never vote for someone who showed himself capable of that much hypocrisy and viciousness, even if he later said "gee, guys, it all came from the self-loathing, dontcha know."
And his original constituency isn't going tp be sympathetic since they LIKED his anti-LGBT stance, and sure as hell won't be sympathetic with him being gay.
A pox on him.
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Post by Vince524 on Nov 20, 2017 13:18:53 GMT -5
To Vince's point -- I might be able to sympathize with the self-loathing, were it not for the fact that the self-loathing dude used his platform to make life more difficult for other LGBT people. Even if I could still summon up a tiny violin for him as a human (and frankly, not really), I sure as hell would never vote for someone who showed himself capable of that much hypocrisy and viciousness, even if he later said "gee, guys, it all came from the self-loathing, dontcha know." And his original constituency isn't going tp be sympathetic since they LIKED his anti-LGBT stance, and sure as hell won't be sympathetic with him being gay. A pox on him. True, but what if he ran for a statewide position claiming that he was so disgusted with his own sexuality that he fought against it with these anti LGBT laws and now, after hitting rock bottom, he's accepted his true self, and will fight against other politicians who have the same stance. Voting for him is giving him the chance to redeem himself, to make up for prior sins. To right many of his own wrongs. He owes it, you see, to the LGBT community to fight for them for all the times he's fought against them.
2 questions.
1) Would you ever consider that something like that could be sincere? (I'd have a real hard time in the case of a campaign, maybe if it were just a personal please forgive me)
2) Would he stand a chance with convincing other's he was sincere enough to win?
I mean, most people believe in 2nd chances. Forgiveness.
It'd be one hell of a campaign, wouldn't it?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 13:33:20 GMT -5
1) No. And whether it was sincere or not, I'd be extremely unlikely to think someone with that past was the best candidate unless his/her opposition was someone who currently held those hateful views.
2) Extremely unlikely, IMO, that he'd convince enough to win an election. The pro-LGBT allies would likely feel as I do. The anti-LGBT people would revile him.
"Second chances" doesn't mean you deserve to hold public office.
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Post by Vince524 on Nov 20, 2017 19:25:17 GMT -5
For the record, I agree. I also think the biggest obstacle would of course be that nobody would believe his sincerity. I would have a really hard time.
On the other hand, if he became an advocate, not looking for power but rather just trying to make amends, I could find myself admiring that.
Or am I nuts?
Don't answer that last one.
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Post by poetinahat on Nov 20, 2017 23:29:40 GMT -5
Kudos, Opty, for your definitive interpretation of "push polling". What if he repented, and ran as a reformed character? What if Presidents were allowed three terms, and Obama ran again, against Trump? What if C-A-T spelled DOG? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 23:35:15 GMT -5
You're weird, poetinacarterpage. You know that.
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Post by poetinahat on Nov 20, 2017 23:41:25 GMT -5
I was only going for ‘cranky’... ‘weird’ was a stretch goal. Woooo!
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Post by Optimus on Sept 3, 2019 16:56:00 GMT -5
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 3, 2019 18:31:55 GMT -5
Hmm. This one feels a little different to me. If one grows up in a very religous culture where homosexuality is a sin, it wouldn't surprise me that you would believe that even if you find yourself attracted to someone of the same sex. If after several years, soul searching, etc you come to terms with the fact that you're gay, that's you overriding a lifetime of preprogrammed shame. That's not easy. He wasn't caught here, at least as far as the article says. (Although, maybe that's why he was fired.)
Think of it another way. John realizes he has a same sex attraction. Because he's been taught his entire life that homosexuality is a sin, he seeks treatment at one of these conversion therapy places. Hey, he's not happy in his life, and it's got the word therapy right in there. But after a certain amount of time, John realizes he just wants to live life naturally. He wants to be happy. Maybe he meets someone that turns his world upside down and gives him to courage to see past his ultra-conservative upbringing. Well then, good for him.
Of course, McKrae Game did damage while he was damaging himself, but was it with ill intent like we often assume of politicians? Something to think about.
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Post by Optimus on Sept 3, 2019 19:42:54 GMT -5
Well, the thing that usually sticks out to me isn't the superficial motivation behind the bigoted behaviour or whether they're intentionally trying to cause harm (it's harmful despite their intention). The main thing I find interesting, and almost completely predictable, is the not-really-surprising hypocrisy that, in the vast majority of these cases that make it to heavy media circulation, the anti-LGBT bigot is also LGBT. It's related to one of the few things Freud ever got right: defense mechanisms (to be clear, 95% of what he said was utter horseshit). Specifically, these types of things happen, the first thing I immediately suspect is that the behaviour is an expression mainly of reaction formation and partly projection.So, yeah, nearly every time I see an ultra-conservative person who is prominently and virulently anti-LGBT, my first thought is that the person is deeply closeted. The list gets bigger each year (see link in my OP). |
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Post by robeiae on Sept 3, 2019 19:56:04 GMT -5
Virulently anti-capitalist types often seem more than willing to take huge paydays when opportunities present themselves, as well.
But in this particular case, I'll say this: the guy came clean and admitted he had been deeply wrong in the past. That's quite a bit better than the case that began this thread.
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Post by Optimus on Sept 3, 2019 20:02:01 GMT -5
Virulently anti-capitalist types often seem more than willing to take huge paydays when opportunities present themselves, as well. But in this particular case, I'll say this: the guy came clean and admitted he had been deeply wrong in the past. That's quite a bit better than the case that began this thread. I agree. Better to thoughtfully learn and change one's mind and behaviour because of personal growth than simply because a person got caught and is trying to save face. |
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