|
Post by robeiae on Jan 8, 2018 14:10:55 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Optimus on Jan 8, 2018 18:10:13 GMT -5
Ironic as it is, I've yet to read about anyone who blathers on about the "problems" associated with "whiteness" (or, in this case, "white racism") who doesn't strike me as a total delusional racist themselves. It's mystifying to me the mental gymnastics the lunatics on the far left have to do in order to convince themselves that it's okay to be overtly, even vehemently racist toward white while not-at-all-hypocritically ( ) decrying all the evils of racism toward non-whites. If it's not okay to be racist toward some groups (and, of course, it's definitely not), then it's not okay to be racist toward any groups.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Jan 8, 2018 20:06:01 GMT -5
The counter to that would be that you can't be racist towards whites, because racism is about power and whites have always had the power.
Of course, power in a situation is flexible. A teacher has power over their class. A sheriff has power over the people in their town. A guy holding a gun has power over whoever he's pointing the gun at.
But y'know.
|
|
|
Post by Christine on Jan 8, 2018 20:32:07 GMT -5
I don't understand why the course is titled "White Racism" given the description of the course? I don't see anything in the links specifying what the complaints are, either.
Re Opty's comment: I think the difference between being racist toward a person of color as opposed to a white person is that racism toward POC has been systemic and widespread, with real effect outside of personal offense. White people have had the upper hand economically, socially, politically, etc. Racist perceptions of POC as being inferior, uneducated, criminal, etc., have pervaded the education system, employment, the police force, etc.
I think "being racist" on an individual level is essentially just being a bigoted asshole. Bigotry can come from any group toward any other group. It may always be so, because, alas, some humans seem to need enemies. But where the power is... that's from whence the legitimate harm comes. In the case of racism, white people are in control.
Ignoring the extremists, I think people who fight against racism are not being racist toward white people; pointing out white privilege, for example, is not being racist toward white people, but many seem to get offended and call it racist nonetheless.
I also think there has been and will continue to be some pendulum-swinging in the pursuit of balance in this regard.
|
|
|
Post by Don on Jan 9, 2018 6:55:59 GMT -5
I don't understand why the course is titled "White Racism" given the description of the course? I don't see anything in the links specifying what the complaints are, either. Re Opty's comment: I think the difference between being racist toward a person of color as opposed to a white person is that racism toward POC has been systemic and widespread, with real effect outside of personal offense. White people have had the upper hand economically, socially, politically, etc. Racist perceptions of POC as being inferior, uneducated, criminal, etc., have pervaded the education system, employment, the police force, etc. I think "being racist" on an individual level is essentially just being a bigoted asshole. Bigotry can come from any group toward any other group. It may always be so, because, alas, some humans seem to need enemies. But where the power is... that's from whence the legitimate harm comes. In the case of racism, white people are in control. Ignoring the extremists, I think people who fight against racism are not being racist toward white people; pointing out white privilege, for example, is not being racist toward white people, but many seem to get offended and call it racist nonetheless. I also think there has been and will continue to be some pendulum-swinging in the pursuit of balance in this regard. I recently got lectured about being part of the "white male oligarchy" and being personally guilty of a "long history of oppressing women and minorities." This was on an RVing forum in response to a comment I made about doing most of the heavy lifting because my wife has medical problems? WTF? When I pointed out that I was a voluntarist and told her to look it up, and that there was a word for those who formed their opinion of people based on color or sex, she claimed she wasn't bigoted because all white men are guilty by default. She has since disappeared from several of the RV groups I belong to. People in the real world know bigots when they see them.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Jan 9, 2018 8:56:31 GMT -5
Ignoring the extremists, I think people who fight against racism are not being racist toward white people; pointing out white privilege, for example, is not being racist toward white people, but many seem to get offended and call it racist nonetheless. For sure, "fighting against racism" doesn't mean one is being racist towards white people. But how one does this fighting is what matters. And sure, pointing out white privilege isn't going to be an exercise in reverse racism as a matter of course. The problem is when not everyone agrees with what is being labeled white privilege. I get the concept and I it's valid and can think of/accept examples of the same (it remains a really obvious thing in a number of arenas imo, from banking to police interactions). But I also think that people go overboard with such concepts, and there's where the problems start piling up, especially when "solutions" are offered/implemeted that are ridiculous in the opinion of many people (like the bone-headed "progressive stacking" that was implemented by that grad student). But as I said, I'd like to audit the course, because I do agree that systemic racism in the US (and elsewhere) has been and remains a problem (even if it's not what it was) and has a very obvious character (i.e. whites at the top, blacks at the bottom, other races scattered in between). As to why it's called "White Racism," I posted the course description. From it (my boldface): So I don't understand what you mean there, Christine. Why does the course title seem off to you?
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Jan 9, 2018 9:04:58 GMT -5
I recently got lectured about being part of the "white male oligarchy" and being personally guilty of a "long history of oppressing women and minorities." This was on an RVing forum in response to a comment I made about doing most of the heavy lifting because my wife has medical problems? WTF? When I pointed out that I was a voluntarist and told her to look it up, and that there was a word for those who formed their opinion of people based on color or sex, she claimed she wasn't bigoted because all white men are guilty by default. This "guilt by association" thing rubs me the wrong way, too. 'Course, one could argue that the same sorts of judgments are routinely and historically passed on members of non-majority groups and they simply have lacked the voice--by and large--to stand up for themselves without some amount of risk, whereas Don and I can freely express our disdain with no potential costs, because we're white men. Thus, "white privilege." See? I could totally ace this course... Anyway, while plenty of people might see my analysis as perfectly valid and reasonable, it doesn't make it true at a specific, individual level. It really doesn't. And I think that's the problem that white privilege theorists have: they think their ideas/analyses are unassailable, logical, and true.
|
|
|
Post by Christine on Jan 9, 2018 10:27:18 GMT -5
As to why it's called "White Racism," I posted the course description. From it (my boldface): So I don't understand what you mean there, Christine. Why does the course title seem off to you? I thought "White Racism" was racism against whites (i.e., reverse racism). The course description seemed normal (except it does say "white racism" again, which I missed on the first read. I then assumed the protests were from the far left. Since I'm apparently wrong about this, I don't understand why this particular course is so controversial. My kiddo wrote a paper on racism in English class, had assigned reading materials on racism in Sociology, that sort of thing. I guess white people are complaining about it? *yawn*
|
|
|
Post by Christine on Jan 9, 2018 19:53:35 GMT -5
I recently got lectured about being part of the "white male oligarchy" and being personally guilty of a "long history of oppressing women and minorities." This was on an RVing forum in response to a comment I made about doing most of the heavy lifting because my wife has medical problems? WTF? When I pointed out that I was a voluntarist and told her to look it up, and that there was a word for those who formed their opinion of people based on color or sex, she claimed she wasn't bigoted because all white men are guilty by default. This "guilt by association" thing rubs me the wrong way, too. 'Course, one could argue that the same sorts of judgments are routinely and historically passed on members of non-majority groups and they simply have lacked the voice--by and large--to stand up for themselves without some amount of risk, whereas Don and I can freely express our disdain with no potential costs, because we're white men. Thus, "white privilege." See? I could totally ace this course... Anyway, while plenty of people might see my analysis as perfectly valid and reasonable, it doesn't make it true at a specific, individual level. It really doesn't. And I think that's the problem that white privilege theorists have: they think their ideas/analyses are unassailable, logical, and true. You could totally ace that course. I have always had a problem when people try to apply statistics to individuals. Like what that woman did to Don. Like what you did with "white privilege theorists." I'm not sure what that woman did was due to guilt-by-association. It sounded more like assumption of motive. But either way, to hear Don tell it, she sounds like a jerk. Unless Don left something out... some intended-to-be humorous comment about "the weaker sex" or some such. I'm just making shit up, but I wouldn't put it past him. And if that were the case, the woman could have misconstrued, or found the joke unfunny/offensive, or something like that... which would make her less of a jerk, though still in need of some perspective, perhaps. Point being that no one benefits when the worst is assumed and offense is taken. Both "sides" can do better, I think. Or maybe I really should stop posting here and go write fiction.
|
|
|
Post by Don on Jan 9, 2018 20:05:41 GMT -5
Nah, no culpa on my part. Apparently she has a habit of wandering around Facebook, joining groups just to find some privileged white males to attack. She hit three of us in the group I was in, and others in other groups. I think it was her week to search "RV" on Facebook.
|
|
|
Post by Christine on Jan 9, 2018 21:58:33 GMT -5
Nah, no culpa on my part. Apparently she has a habit of wandering around Facebook, joining groups just to find some privileged white males to attack. She hit three of us in the group I was in, and others in other groups. I think it was her week to search "RV" on Facebook. Okay, I believe you, but just, what if, you didn't see her as a lost cause, or an enemy, once she offended you by calling you names. Is she threatening your livelihood, your social status, your peace of mind? If not, then why snap back? Why not make an honest attempt to explain/explore the disconnect? I guess I'm veering into obnoxiously bleeding heart territory here, but look at how Sarah Silverman responded to a dude who called her the c-word. I'm just saying. That woman was somehow offended by what you said. You were offended by what she said. And, absent someone stopping to analyze the exchange without the offense factor, so it goes, ad infinitum. And then, the offense caused by the "other side" is justification for doubling down on our opinions, including deciding who is an asshole and who doesn't deserve our time of day (as we post on the internet to people we've mostly never met in person). It's very convenient to lump someone into a pre-established category (sexist; leftist; etc.) because they've offended or judged us, because of course a sexist/leftist would do this. I mean, at least try to bridge the gap, as opposed to a tit-for-tat retort? It goes both ways, of course, but someone has to start. People want to be understood; maybe you could have changed that woman's MO, or at least made a dent in it, if you'd taken a little bit more time. Then again, maybe not. It's a thought. ETA: Sorry for expounding so much on your encounter as my example; I really don't mean you at all; I mean people. I'm in that sort of mood, I guess. Tomorrow I'll likely be cursing humanity in its entirety.
|
|
|
Post by Don on Jan 10, 2018 6:43:32 GMT -5
Yeah, definitely bleeding heart territory there. If this had been someone who I had seen around the group, acting remotely human in her exchanges, I would certainly have reacted differently. But a quick look showed she was new to the group, and her only other post in the group was attacking some other hapless white male. A quick look at her feed confirmed her trollishness. I don't waste my time being rational with trolls. Actually, I was nice, in that I didn't actually call her a bigot until my second response.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Jan 10, 2018 13:04:47 GMT -5
The problem is people who talk about privilege often use it as a way to silence and shame those that they perceive as having a privilege. As if somehow they share some sort of collective guilt. So take DWB. A black person talks about how they can get pulled over in a white neighborhood without breaking any traffic laws. Okay, that's a problem. But when you say my driving in that same neighborhood and not getting pulled over is white privilege that makes it sound as if I'm doing something wrong by not getting a ticket for not breaking any traffic laws. My foster daughter talked to me about a video about privilege. It showed a bunch of people lined up for a race. Winner got $100 in cash. Before they could run the race, they were told to take a step forward if they had both parents still together. Another if they have support from both parents. Another if they've never worried about where they're next meal would come from. Or faced homelessness. Etc, etc, so forth and so on. The result was that some had a hefty lead on others. Now the narrator made the point that in the end, they all have to run the same race. But you know if you all started at the same spot, you'd get smoked by some of the people at the back. Look, there's nothing wrong with being away of things you have going for you, for being grateful that you have parents that are there to love you, support you, that you never have to worry about where a mean is going to come from, or where you'll be sleeping the next night. The problem is when somehow you're made to feel as if you're doing something wrong because you have those things. Such as the advantage of having parents that read to you as a child. www.nationalreview.com/article/417997/professor-if-you-read-your-kids-youre-unfairly-disadvantaging-others-katherine-timpfI'm thinking also of that professor with the progressive stacking. She'd look out on her class and decide the pecking order based on race and gender. So my foster daughter, who has not had an easy life, wouldn't be top on her list to call on because she's white, but at least she's female. My foster son, who is both male and white, isn't comfortable raising his hand, and also has had to work hard for his grades under what's pretty bad conditions would be seen as privileged, so much so that she'd call on him as a last resort.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Jan 10, 2018 13:57:15 GMT -5
Yeah, for me, most of the problems with white privilege theorists are a consequence of them trying to solve their assumed problems.
I think that if your solution requires the purposeful mis-treatment--or worse treatment--of a given group, then you're doing it wrong. Solutions should be about treating people equally, about not dividing them up, not about maintaining lines of division in order to make things worse for one group.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Jan 10, 2018 16:19:23 GMT -5
Yeah, for me, most of the problems with white privilege theorists are a consequence of them trying to solve their assumed problems. I think that if your solution requires the purposeful mis-treatment--or worse treatment--of a given group, then you're doing it wrong. Solutions should be about treating people equally, about not dividing them up, not about maintaining lines of division in order to make things worse for one group. Exactly. Like it's fine to say,
Hey, nice tie thanks, my wife got it for me
And point out if a man said my husband got it for me, all of a sudden some people are like, OMG, you're gay?! A gay person has to think about all of that before they mention husband or boyfriend. They have to worry about if they could lose their job, have family members treat them badly, etc. So be aware of that, thoughtful of that, and thankful that it's something you don't have to deal with.
But that same person who can say 'My wife got me that tie' may not be able to answer a question like what did you do for father's day. "Oh, I visited my dad at jail." What makes us different isn't always so apparent.
And in the end, it's not either the straight or gay guy with the tie that's doing anything wrong, it's the person that makes a big deal over who got him a tie.
|
|