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Post by nighttimer on Mar 18, 2018 18:07:25 GMT -5
If instead of new gun control laws, "Prayer in Schools" had been seized on as the solution to the problem of school violence, and promoted as righteously as these "protests" have been by taxpayer-funded institutions, a ton of people would change their position so fast their necks would snap. Imagine if this had been a christian institution, the kids reacted in accordance with their beliefs, and it had suddenly become a national movement. Would that be ok? Not to me. YMMV. Blah, blah, blah, bullshit. If the dog hadn't stopped to take a shit it would have caught the rabbit. More befuddling tangents from the Orator of Obfuscation. Is the total incapability to stick to the goddamn subject your mutant power?
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 18, 2018 18:49:25 GMT -5
NPR on perceptions vs. reality. Further down in your link: Annnnnnnnd further down... And even further down... Gotta say I do appreciate the link. Especially the rest of the story. I have to say this is the first "protest" or "walkout" I'm aware of where kids were punished for staying in their classrooms. When I was in school, events sanctioned by the schools with required participation were not called "protests" or "walkouts," they were called assemblies. How quaint, but I hate to interrupt your fond reminiscing to back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth and you were just a wee sprout of a Don, but what things were like when you were in school is totally beside the point. Because while you can and do enjoy dropping in unattributed gripes about " kids were punished for staying in the classrooms" I'm quite certain you're old to know you can't believe half of what you read and the other half you should critically think about before believing in it. Since you didn't bother including a link to your spurious assertion, I can only hazard a guess that you're bumping your gums and gnashing your teeth over Young Master Shoemaker's decision to sit out the memorial service for the Parkland victims. Unless there's another case you're waxing horrific affront to. It's kinda hard to tell, but that's probably how you wanted it. Otherwise, cool story, bro.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2018 20:14:54 GMT -5
Many on the right were questioning whether Emma Gonzalez, David Hogg, etc., were being manipulated by adults.
Gotta say, tweets like this make me wonder whether Kyle Kashuv is writing all his own tweets. This, to me, sounds like a finger-shaking right-wing 45-year-old, not a 17-year-old kid talking about his classmates:
Seriously, the kid is either being used or he's a tool -- and not because he supports the second amendment.
ETA:
Disclosure: I have a kneejerk negative reaction to the words "shame on you." When applied to something genuinely atrocious, they are entirely inadequate. When applied to something one simply doesn't agree with, they tend to just sound priggish and self-righteous, at least to my ears. No one has ever yet succeeded in making me feel ashamed by using those words.
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Post by Amadan on Mar 19, 2018 9:12:59 GMT -5
Because while you can and do enjoy dropping in unattributed gripes about " kids were punished for staying in the classrooms" I'm quite certain you're old to know you can't believe half of what you read and the other half you should critically think about before believing in it. I posted that link already. I guess I'm like Cass now, no one reads my posts.
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Post by robeiae on Mar 19, 2018 9:25:52 GMT -5
You may not agree with their cause (gun control), but the older generation usually doesn't like what the kids are protesting about or for. And I cannot help but admire the fact that high school students are doing this. My son walked out of school with most all of his classmates the week after the shooting. They didn't have permission, though some teachers supported them. Not the admin, however. And I think this was the case for many of the week-after or so walkouts. My son also participated in the March 14th walk-out. We talked about it and his point of view on the latter was that it was something of a joke. He wasn't proud for doing it; he did it because everyone was doing it, because the school basically sanctioned it and expected it. It was a nothing moment. I suppose that if his school was larger and their were TV crews around, he and his classmates might have done some "protesting." As it was, they just milled around and talked. So, I think Don has a pretty good point, one that a lot of kids--like my son and his friends--recognize as well: you're not really taking a stand or even protesting if you're doing what's expected of you and most everyone is offering meaningless "attaboys." Many on the right were questioning whether Emma Gonzalez, David Hogg, etc., were being manipulated by adults. Gotta say, tweets like this make me wonder whether Kyle Kashuv is writing all his own tweets. This, to me, sounds like a finger-shaking right-wing 45-year-old, not a 17-year-old kid talking about his classmates: I don't disagree at all. But then, I think most of them are being used at this point in time. I mean, Hogg has gone from tweeting a "gotcha" clip (that was an obvious set-up and quite sleazy, though maybe consistent with the mentality of an entitled teen) before the shooting, to tweeting understandable outrage and anger immediately after the shooting, to--more recently--tweeting controlled responses interlaced with banality, which indicates--imo--professional-level media savvy. I don't disagree here, either. But then again, "shame on you" is one of Gonzalez's lines and a chant used frequently by the protesters. Everything cuts both ways, imo.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 10:02:05 GMT -5
I dislike "shame on you" no matter who it's coming from. It's not that I think it's never deserved--I absolutely do think it sometimes is. But it's got a nanny sound to it that I despise. There are better, stronger ways to say it when someone is acting in a truly despicable manner.
Like, I actually DO find it gross that so many politicians seem to have sold themselves body and soul to the NRA. But I still don't like "shame on you!"
(This knee-jerk reaction may stem in part from a elderly relative of mine who literally wags her finger in your face and says "shame on you!" when someone does something she doesn't like or refuses to do something she wants. I have rarely found it justified, and have been on the receiving end of it more than once (as has everyone she knows). I can't see the words without seeing her obnoxious waggling finger under my nose.)
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Post by Amadan on Mar 19, 2018 10:03:11 GMT -5
My son walked out of school with most all of his classmates the week after the shooting. They didn't have permission, though some teachers supported them. Not the admin, however. And I think this was the case for many of the week-after or so walkouts. My son also participated in the March 14th walk-out. We talked about it and his point of view on the latter was that it was something of a joke. He wasn't proud for doing it; he did it because everyone was doing it, because the school basically sanctioned it and expected it. It was a nothing moment. I suppose that if his school was larger and their were TV crews around, he and his classmates might have done some "protesting." As it was, they just milled around and talked. So, I think Don has a pretty good point, one that a lot of kids--like my son and his friends--recognize as well: you're not really taking a stand or even protesting if you're doing what's expected of you and most everyone is offering meaningless "attaboys." I'm sure at some point, participating in the walkout becomes just the "in" thing to do. I am not saying every high school student who walked out on March 14 was an informed, thoughtful, committed advocate of gun control. My point was that Don's points were mostly fabrications combined with an ironic dose of "Kids today." And Don is accusing me and others of hypocrisy for supporting their protest, on the theory that if they were protesting for something we don't like, we wouldn't support them. J'accuse Don of hypocrisy, since I think if they were protesting for something he likes, he would be supporting them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 10:07:51 GMT -5
My niece took part in a walk-out and is writing letters to congress critters. Her whole heart is in it, and the same is true of her friends.
I'm sure some are just doing the cool thing. But I'm equally certain a good many feel deeply about it. And that is not surprising -- they've seen a lot of kids their own age gunned down between algebra and English class. That being the case, it's a lot less surprising to me that so many kids are pro-gun control than that some are all adamant about the second amendment.
As someone who held some pretty freaking adamant opinions as a teen, I reject the notion that all kids are just "oh, this is the cool thing so I'll do it."
A lot of adults across the spectrum are guilty of posturing and non-deep thinking, as well...
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Post by Don on Mar 19, 2018 14:27:58 GMT -5
My son walked out of school with most all of his classmates the week after the shooting. They didn't have permission, though some teachers supported them. Not the admin, however. And I think this was the case for many of the week-after or so walkouts. My son also participated in the March 14th walk-out. We talked about it and his point of view on the latter was that it was something of a joke. He wasn't proud for doing it; he did it because everyone was doing it, because the school basically sanctioned it and expected it. It was a nothing moment. I suppose that if his school was larger and their were TV crews around, he and his classmates might have done some "protesting." As it was, they just milled around and talked. So, I think Don has a pretty good point, one that a lot of kids--like my son and his friends--recognize as well: you're not really taking a stand or even protesting if you're doing what's expected of you and most everyone is offering meaningless "attaboys." I'm sure at some point, participating in the walkout becomes just the "in" thing to do. I am not saying every high school student who walked out on March 14 was an informed, thoughtful, committed advocate of gun control. My point was that Don's points were mostly fabrications combined with an ironic dose of "Kids today." And Don is accusing me and others of hypocrisy for supporting their protest, on the theory that if they were protesting for something we don't like, we wouldn't support them. J'accuse Don of hypocrisy, since I think if they were protesting for something he likes, he would be supporting them. If these kids were protesting, I'd at least support them for independent thinking and standing up to authority. Neither groupthink nor begging authority to take more power away from the people is worthy of applause, IMO. Attending the March 14 school-sanctioned gatherings was not protesting, it was attending a scheduled assembly. No bravery or independent thought required or desired.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 19, 2018 14:57:35 GMT -5
You may not agree with their cause (gun control), but the older generation usually doesn't like what the kids are protesting about or for. And I cannot help but admire the fact that high school students are doing this. My son walked out of school with most all of his classmates the week after the shooting. They didn't have permission, though some teachers supported them. Not the admin, however. And I think this was the case for many of the week-after or so walkouts. My son also participated in the March 14th walk-out. We talked about it and his point of view on the latter was that it was something of a joke. He wasn't proud for doing it; he did it because everyone was doing it, because the school basically sanctioned it and expected it. It was a nothing moment. I suppose that if his school was larger and their were TV crews around, he and his classmates might have done some "protesting." As it was, they just milled around and talked. So, I think Don has a pretty good point, one that a lot of kids--like my son and his friends--recognize as well: you're not really taking a stand or even protesting if you're doing what's expected of you and most everyone is offering meaningless "attaboys." With all due deference to your son, it doesn't really matter if his reasons for walking out weren't the most sincere or committed of reasons. Sometimes, the act itself matters more than the result. This is a hard fight and there have been grown folks fighting against the gun lobby for years. It's going to take a lot more than a walkout to loosen the stranglehold the NRA has on our elected officials. There's a reason its called "political theater." Some things are simply for show and in your son's experience the school walkout was more about going along with the majority instead of a fierce passion. But it doesn't throw shade on the youth movement taking to the streets to protest. Even if only one mind is changed for the better, it's totally worth it. So it's okay if not every kid that walked out did so because they were totally down for the cause. Not everyone who got thumped on trying to integrate a lunch counter or worked over by Chicago cops protesting the Vietnam War were doing it because they had a sudden crave to get their asses kicked. Even MLK started out as a reluctant participant in the struggle for civil rights before he became a general of an army of peaceful non-violent protesters.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 19, 2018 15:12:11 GMT -5
I'm sure at some point, participating in the walkout becomes just the "in" thing to do. I am not saying every high school student who walked out on March 14 was an informed, thoughtful, committed advocate of gun control. My point was that Don's points were mostly fabrications combined with an ironic dose of "Kids today." And Don is accusing me and others of hypocrisy for supporting their protest, on the theory that if they were protesting for something we don't like, we wouldn't support them. J'accuse Don of hypocrisy, since I think if they were protesting for something he likes, he would be supporting them. If these kids were protesting, I'd at least support them for independent thinking and standing up to authority. Neither groupthink nor begging authority to take more power away from the people is worthy of applause, IMO. Attending the March 14 school-sanctioned gatherings was not protesting, it was attending a scheduled assembly. No bravery or independent thought required or desired. You really need to vary your reading list to something other than 1984. IMO, your opinion is the embodiment of rigid, unyielding, unthinking conforming and mindless adherence to a corrupt status quo. It's nauseating to see the Great Libertarian smooching the same funky asses the Republican Party smooches like a long-lost lover. Does it really smell like roses? These kids don't need your support. They never asked for it and you were never going to give it. Traditionalist reactionaries aren't particularly fond of any movement whose goals conflict with their own. Damn shame.
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Post by Amadan on Mar 19, 2018 15:32:30 GMT -5
If these kids were protesting, I'd at least support them for independent thinking and standing up to authority. Neither groupthink nor begging authority to take more power away from the people is worthy of applause, IMO. Attending the March 14 school-sanctioned gatherings was not protesting, it was attending a scheduled assembly. No bravery or independent thought required or desired. Don, I'm calling absolute bullshit on this. Explain exactly what you mean by "school-sanctioned" and "scheduled assembly" and then cite your evidence that it was so. I've already acknowledged that a lot of the student protesters probably thought "Cool, an excuse to bug out on class." But that is true of every mass demonstration - for every committed activist, there's someone there who's treating it as a giant party. If you are going to sneer at every last student protesting for something you don't happen to like, you need to show your work, not just assert that you think it's a big stupid idea and therefore everyone who's participating is stupid.
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Post by robeiae on Mar 20, 2018 7:31:07 GMT -5
My niece took part in a walk-out and is writing letters to congress critters. Her whole heart is in it, and the same is true of her friends. I'm sure some are just doing the cool thing. But I'm equally certain a good many feel deeply about it. And that is not surprising -- they've seen a lot of kids their own age gunned down between algebra and English class. That being the case, it's a lot less surprising to me that so many kids are pro-gun control than that some are all adamant about the second amendment. As someone who held some pretty freaking adamant opinions as a teen, I reject the notion that all kids are just "oh, this is the cool thing so I'll do it." Yeah, that's not what I'm saying. You've set up a phony either-or (and at my son's expense, no less). It doesn't have to be either they care deeply or they're just doing the cool thing. Just because one believes in a cause or the like, it doesn't mean one has to believe every action taken in supposed support of that cause is a good thing. My son and his friends did and do care deeply. He actually knows kids at Stoneman Douglas (as do I, along with teachers). This shit affected him and his friends; they were wound up and really, they still are. But they're also smart enough to understand what "protesting," "taking a stand," and the like actually entails.
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Post by robeiae on Mar 20, 2018 7:45:58 GMT -5
If these kids were protesting, I'd at least support them for independent thinking and standing up to authority. Neither groupthink nor begging authority to take more power away from the people is worthy of applause, IMO. Attending the March 14 school-sanctioned gatherings was not protesting, it was attending a scheduled assembly. No bravery or independent thought required or desired. Don, I'm calling absolute bullshit on this. Explain exactly what you mean by "school-sanctioned" and "scheduled assembly" and then cite your evidence that it was so. I've already acknowledged that a lot of the student protesters probably thought "Cool, an excuse to bug out on class." But that is true of every mass demonstration - for every committed activist, there's someone there who's treating it as a giant party. If you are going to sneer at every last student protesting for something you don't happen to like, you need to show your work, not just assert that you think it's a big stupid idea and therefore everyone who's participating is stupid. There are an awful lot of schools and school districts out there and it's true that they all didn't handle the March 14th walkout the same way. Some schools certainly did not go along with the walk out at all. But plenty did. Predictably, most of the ones in my neck of the woods did. But so did others in other parts of the country. So I'll say it again: imo, of you're protesting by walking out of class, with blessings from the teacher and the admin, you're not really protesting. This piece at the Atlantic has a good comparison, imo: I thought the early walkouts were far more effective and meaningful than this large-scale planned one on March 14th. And these earlier ones didn't suffer from having functionally unrelated orgs trying to glom on for PR purposes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 8:11:50 GMT -5
What, the kids have to get in trouble or suffer for it to be a viable protest?
The kids aren't protesting the schools, the teachers, their administrators, or the school board -- many of which agree with their stance.
Rather, they are protesting their government's inaction (and actions they don't like -- e.g., proposing to arm teachers).
If anything, I think the fact that the schools aren't fighting them adds strength to their protest, even though at the same time it makes it easier for them to do so.
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