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Post by Amadan on Mar 20, 2018 8:19:06 GMT -5
I'm not talking about whether they were effective. Don is outraged because tax dollars were spent on officially sanctioned (even, he implies, mandated) protests.
In your linked article, you've got a tweet from a superintendent saying they support the students. So some school districts basically gave a go-ahead. That's still a far cry from the Orwellian state indoctrination Don is flapping his arms about. I haven't even seen any evidence yet of a school that officially backed and organized protests, as opposed to just allowing the students to do it.
Schools have often given a pass to student protests, and it's not surprising there is ambivalence here. If Don is outraged that some schools backed the students, I guess he should be delighted that some schools paddled them?
Don and you think this protest is stupid because all the students are mindless lemmings because you don't like the cause. I still maintain this protest is no different than any other protest, with the ratio of thinking protesters to herd-followers being pretty much the same regardless of cause. If you're objecting to the protest on the principle of either "taxpayer dollars" or "they don't really mean it," then you should be against all protests.
This is not the big deal either of you are making it out to be, and the hypocrisy Don is alleging is bullshit.
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Post by robeiae on Mar 20, 2018 8:43:48 GMT -5
I'm not making it into a big deal. Exactly the opposite. I'm unwilling to jump on the "wow, this was amazing" bandwagon for a staged "walk out" that--in many cases--was done with the blessings of the administration.
Nowhere did I say this protest was stupid. And I very much respected my son's decision--and that of his friends--to engage in the initial walk out in the week after the shooting (and they have done more than that). But again, they clearly saw this second large scale organized protest in a very different light than the initial ones. They thought it was a waste of time, was less meaningful.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 20, 2018 14:32:37 GMT -5
My niece took part in a walk-out and is writing letters to congress critters. Her whole heart is in it, and the same is true of her friends. I'm sure some are just doing the cool thing. But I'm equally certain a good many feel deeply about it. And that is not surprising -- they've seen a lot of kids their own age gunned down between algebra and English class. That being the case, it's a lot less surprising to me that so many kids are pro-gun control than that some are all adamant about the second amendment. As someone who held some pretty freaking adamant opinions as a teen, I reject the notion that all kids are just "oh, this is the cool thing so I'll do it." Yeah, that's not what I'm saying. You've set up a phony either-or ( and at my son's expense, no less). It doesn't have to be either they care deeply or they're just doing the cool thing. Just because one believes in a cause or the like, it doesn't mean one has to believe every action taken in supposed support of that cause is a good thing. My son and his friends did and do care deeply. He actually knows kids at Stoneman Douglas (as do I, along with teachers). This shit affected him and his friends; they were wound up and really, they still are. But they're also smart enough to understand what "protesting," "taking a stand," and the like actually entails. Whoa. Slow your roll and pump ya brakes there, chief. What's "phony" about Cassandra saying her niece is totally down for the #Enough movement? I don't see any direct or veiled criticism of your son. You introduced a personal connection to this story. It's not unfair to your son to discuss his actions or motivations in less than laudatory terms. Meanwhile, another day, another school shooting:At this time it appears nobody but the shooter died and he was taken out by a security officer who ran toward the sound of gunfire and took the guy out. Scot Peterson, please take notes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 17:03:46 GMT -5
To be clear, I did not mean any criticism at all of your son, Rob.
I just meant to say that I know at least some kids who don't feel, at all, like their protest is something less than a real protest, even if their teachers aren't giving them a hassle about it.
Aside from that --
I'm really profoundly happy to see kids get involved in a cause that is larger than themselves.
As a side note, it is amusing to me as I follow them on Twitter to see that the kids (of course) remain kids, with all that implies. They tweet about homework, college applications, and music, they flirt and bicker.
The only reason I took a poke at Kyle Kashov is because the pro-gun people are holding him up as a miraculous paragon of maturity and politeness and disparaging the other kids in comparison, a distinction I don't think he deserves. I don't like the way he's rubbing inthe "nyah, nyah, I was at the White House". I admit my own biases likely affect my reaction to it, though.
The fact is they're all kids. Most are quite reasonably polite and mature; many also -- not surprisingly -- have moments when they are less so. Because, you know, kids.
But overall I'm quite inspired to see that the young'ns are showing some real character (more than some of their elders...), and that they're willing to stand up for causes they care about. I think that's just tremendous.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 22, 2018 19:35:02 GMT -5
Many on the right were questioning whether Emma Gonzalez, David Hogg, etc., were being manipulated by adults. Gotta say, tweets like this make me wonder whether Kyle Kashuv is writing all his own tweets. This, to me, sounds like a finger-shaking right-wing 45-year-old, not a 17-year-old kid talking about his classmates: Seriously, the kid is either being used or he's a tool -- and not because he supports the second amendment. ETA: Disclosure: I have a kneejerk negative reaction to the words "shame on you." When applied to something genuinely atrocious, they are entirely inadequate. When applied to something one simply doesn't agree with, they tend to just sound priggish and self-righteous, at least to my ears. No one has ever yet succeeded in making me feel ashamed by using those words. I disagree, Cassandra. I don't believe Kyle Kashuv is being used (at least not unwillingly) OR he's anyone's "tool." No, rather I think Young Mr. Kahuv has firmly embraced his newfound status as the conservative alternative to David Hogg and Emma Gonzalez. Nothing wrong with that. I have no bitch about a conservative high school student saying, "Hey, not so fast. What happened at my school is terrible, but don't blame the AR-15 for what Nicholas Cruz did." There's absolutely wrong with being pro-gun and anti-gun control. The only question I'd have for Young Mr.Kashuv is this: Is this about what happened at Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school or is this about you gladhanding with GOP politicians? Trump isn't meeting with Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer or Sarah Brady or Emma Gonzalez or David Hogg for the second time in a month to discuss future school shootings. He's meeting with Kashuv because his pro-gun/pro Second Amendments line up so nicely with Trump and the Republican leadership. This is not by accident that only one side gets the Presidential seal of approval while the other side goes unheard. This is about the optics of Trump posing with a Parkland school shooting survivor whose viewpoints come straight out of the NRA/GOP playbook in How To Respond To School Shootings. I'm sure it does no harm to whatever Young Mr. Kashuv's future aspirations may be whether it is in politics, broadcasting or other avenues which may benefit him greatly in the future. The same could be said about Gonzalez and Hogg, but for some reason they don't seem quite as focused on photo-ops with politicians as Kashuv and I'm fairly certain I understand what it is Gonzalez and Hogg are trying to accomplish. I'm at a bit of a loss what Kyle Kashuv is trying to accomplish beyond trying to ingratiate himself with Republican politicians whom he won't challenge and don't feel they're being by.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 21:15:16 GMT -5
My reference to Kyle seeming like a "tool" was actually intended as it is defined in the urban dictionary -- i.e., that he's on a bit of an ego trip and waaaaay too into shmoozing with the president and politicians and strutting around about his trips to the White House. In other words, pretty much what you said.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 22, 2018 21:40:54 GMT -5
I'm not making it into a big deal. Exactly the opposite. I'm unwilling to jump on the "wow, this was amazing" bandwagon for a staged "walk out" that--in many cases--was done with the blessings of the administration. Nowhere did I say this protest was stupid. And I very much respected my son's decision--and that of his friends--to engage in the initial walk out in the week after the shooting (and they have done more than that). But again, they clearly saw this second large scale organized protest in a very different light than the initial ones. They thought it was a waste of time, was less meaningful. The school shooting in Maryland didn't get its own thread. Trump didn't tweet about it. Fox News didn't give it saturation coverage. Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham and Oxycontin Rush Limbaugh didn't devote hours on TV and radio. Don't wait for the report from The Heritage Foundation or pronouncements of yet more useless fucking "thought and prayers" from Mitch, Paul and Mike. Donald won't bother because he's too busy bragging on Twitter how his fat 71-year-old-ass complete with bone spurs will kick Fightin' Joe Biden's ass. Nobody went on national television to deplore the latest shooting and call for reform. Bernie didn't. Hillary didn't. Joe didn't. Barack didn't. Howard didn't. Elizabeth didn't. The usual suspects were nowhere to be found and really, why would/ should they? One killer dead and one victim dead. That's too small a body count to spend precious political capital on. Better to keep it in the bank and wait until the dead and wounded hits double figures. Psst...nobody cares about the wounded and only the family cares about the dead.
Don won't respond to this because he never does when he's called out on his b.s, but I really cannot wait for him to weigh in on how the death of Jaelynn Wiley was necessary to protect our God-given 2nd Amendment rights to put guns into the hands of sick-ass animals who should have been smothered in their own cribs before they ever grew into these twisted little FUCKS who murder innocents. There is no Constitutional right so sacrosanct it supersedes Jaeynn's right to simply live. I'd sooner put ever goddamn gun in the world in the bottom of the deepest fucking ocean than to allow even one more to steal a young woman's life away. But hey, I never said I wasn't a radical dreamer. And becoming more of one every day when yet another young life ends due to being on the wrong end of an evil gun.
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Post by Don on Mar 24, 2018 6:43:29 GMT -5
Nice strawman rant there, nt. Obviously rhetorical, so I won't bother. There is this, though. "Be careful what you wish for, gun-grabber edition." This is beyond stupid. Are they also going to require clear purses, gym bags, and lunch bags?
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Post by Don on Mar 24, 2018 7:19:21 GMT -5
The mote in her eye is huge. Really huge. The hugest. Concerning the bold, italicized and underlined sentence: This is precisely the argument against more gun laws that will be selectively enforced. Apparently collective punishment is a no-go when she's a member of the collective, but it's fine if it's just "other" people. Pure undiluted hypocrisy.
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Post by Amadan on Mar 24, 2018 9:26:24 GMT -5
Nice strawman rant there, nt. Obviously rhetorical, so I won't bother. There is this, though. "Be careful what you wish for, gun-grabber edition." This is beyond stupid. Are they also going to require clear purses, gym bags, and lunch bags? You haven't addressed my points, however. It still seems to me that your contempt is based entirely on the fact that you don't agree with them. It's slightly ironic to see someone as anti-establishment as you shaking your fist at those stupid kids who won't stay in school and docilely accept the status quo like they're supposed to. Are the some of the things some of them may be advocating dumb? Yeah. I am not down with everything they are demanding. But your teeth-gnashing about Orwellian schools that allow them to demonstrate instead of paddling them is ridiculous and the only real hypocrisy in this thread.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 24, 2018 10:44:37 GMT -5
Nice strawman rant there, nt. Obviously rhetorical, so I won't bother. "Won't" or "Can't?" It's not the same thing. How sad it is to see Mr. Libertarian rail and flail against the dire sight of thousands of engaged American citizens come together to demand from their government that steps be taken to secure their life, liberty and their pursuit of happiness. How terrible it must be to live in a state of perpetual self-righteousness where you can cast yourself as the hero of your own narrative waging an endless war against both the State and the status quo, right up to the point until a Emma Gonzalez or a David Hogg come along and demonstrate what a real activist looks like. What it means to get off your dead ass, step away from the keyboard and get out in the streets and tell all the people, "WE have the power and we're taking it back from the special interests and their paid-off political whores."That's what democracy looks like, Don, so why does it frighten you and the rest of the status quo so much? If my world were being rocked that way, I too might respond with some weak-ass memes I made up myself. Then again, I probably wouldn't because while I can be self-righteous, I'm a little more self-aware of it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2018 22:03:41 GMT -5
Soooo...pro-gun kid posted this. Sean Spicer will be glad to know least one person in America besides Trump bought his ridiculous inauguration crowd bullshit:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2018 8:50:50 GMT -5
The Pope seems to be a supporter of the gun-control marches...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2018 9:34:40 GMT -5
Does tightening gun laws make a difference? Yes. Yes, it does.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 26, 2018 9:53:04 GMT -5
There has been a predictable and pathetic response from the NRA and its sycophants like failed presidential candidate and human garbage pile Rick Santorum piping up about what the Parkland survivors need more than gun control. I don't know how CNN gets out of the ratings pit they're trapped in, but one way might be to stop giving airtime to stupid fucks like Santorum who has been repeatedly rejected by the voters and doesn't deserve a high-profile forum to interject moronic suggestions into a serious subject. This is how a free country wins back its soul.
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