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Post by robeiae on Mar 7, 2018 16:04:46 GMT -5
And then there's this... ETA: I cannot help but feel that a certain circle is profiting bigly -- and the rest of us are being played. I agree. But then--going back to the last three admins--this is something that is happening routinely, imo. It seems to me that a lot of people have been willing to look the other way for a long time in this regard, have been willing to just chalk it up to "that's just the way it works." Trump and company seem to be oddly--or I guess stupidly--more transparent in their corruption and profiteering. Maybe that could turn out to be a good thing in the long run, could force people to admit the reality when people in the next admin play the same game, even if they do it a little bit better. I know, I'm a dreamer... As to the tariff stuff, I think it's a stick aimed at Canada and Mexico, as a means of forcing changes to NAFTA. Trump acts like he's in a closed door meeting with a business associate on this stuff, where it's all--shockingly--about him. Again, he lacks the temperament for the job. Will he follow through? He's petulant enough to do so, imo. On the flip side though, I think this particular issue--tariffs and trade wars--resonates with a lot of people, because let's be honest: past admins--stretching back to Carter--don't always put US interests first and many sectors of the US economy have given ground internationally and nationally because of this. And it's reflective of a mindset that still feels like the US has to "make up" for manifest density, for its past economic dominance. Which is stupid--imo--because the US isn't all that dominant right now. We really don't negotiate hard enough in general, imo. But going to an extreme like Trump is doing is no solution either (though Trump supporters are now going to be pointing to North Korea; until that shakes out fully, it's going to be hard to get them off of it).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2018 16:25:41 GMT -5
I'm reading David Frum's "Trumpocracy" right now. One of its central themes is that we've been building to our current moment through the last few administrations, bit by bit, pushing the game further and further... but people only freaked out when it was their side "losing"...and were comfortable as long as they trusted the guys in charge...and mostly we had enough reasonably competent people at the helm who cared enough about the well-being of the country that nothing was too disastrous...
But now, unfortunately, we're in the hands of an administration who really does not care about even paying lip service to the rules, and who really doesn't know what it's doing, who doesn't have an opposing party in Congress to keep it in check, and so we're reaping the sad results of our collective failure to ratchet back earlier oversteps.
I think that's right. I do think (obviously) that Trump is way, way the hell beyond anything we've seen before, and way the hell less competent, but the fact is, there have been gradual expansions of executive power and abuses of legislative process that made it possible for an incompetent (or worse) person to truly run amok. And now, yeah, I think that's what's happening.
I share your hope that this administration serves as an important wake-up call that the rules of the game matter -- it's not just about temporary wins for your side. I hope to hell the next administration walks it the hell back. Our system of government depends on it. (I gotta admit I'm really, really afraid that it won't serve as such a wake-up call. That would be bad.)
Anyway. A ton of industries and a pile of conservatives are screaming about how rotten these tariffs will be for industries other than the steel manufacturing industry, and for consumers. And of course our allies are furious and planning to retaliate. I gotta hope Trump backs off.
Heh. Here's where I'm conservative -- I think it's generally an extremely bad idea to come out guns a'blazing with sudden radical change on economic stuff. This stuff requires thought and research into consequences, including unintended ones. And one thing is painfully clear -- Trump didn't do that.
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Post by Don on Mar 8, 2018 9:06:47 GMT -5
I'm reading David Frum's "Trumpocracy" right now. One of its central themes is that we've been building to our current moment through the last few administrations, bit by bit, pushing the game further and further... but people only freaked out when it was their side "losing"...and were comfortable as long as they trusted the guys in charge...and mostly we had enough reasonably competent people at the helm who cared enough about the well-being of the country that nothing was too disastrous... But now, unfortunately, we're in the hands of an administration who really does not care about even paying lip service to the rules, and who really doesn't know what it's doing, who doesn't have an opposing party in Congress to keep it in check, and so we're reaping the sad results of our collective failure to ratchet back earlier oversteps. I think that's right. I do think (obviously) that Trump is way, way the hell beyond anything we've seen before, and way the hell less competent, but the fact is, there have been gradual expansions of executive power and abuses of legislative process that made it possible for an incompetent (or worse) person to truly run amok. And now, yeah, I think that's what's happening. I share your hope that this administration serves as an important wake-up call that the rules of the game matter -- it's not just about temporary wins for your side. I hope to hell the next administration walks it the hell back. Our system of government depends on it. (I gotta admit I'm really, really afraid that it won't serve as such a wake-up call. That would be bad.) Anyway. A ton of industries and a pile of conservatives are screaming about how rotten these tariffs will be for industries other than the steel manufacturing industry, and for consumers. And of course our allies are furious and planning to retaliate. I gotta hope Trump backs off. Heh. Here's where I'm conservative -- I think it's generally an extremely bad idea to come out guns a'blazing with sudden radical change on economic stuff. This stuff requires thought and research into consequences, including unintended ones. And one thing is painfully clear -- Trump didn't do that. Gee, I distinctly remember after Trump was nominated that I repeatedly pointed out in another forum that there was still plenty of time for Obama to disassemble the imperial presidency before the election, just in case. Boy, did I get vilified for that, just as I was vilified for pointing out the problems with the imperial presidency for years before that. All by partisans who were happy to have an overly-powerful Supreme Leaser who was on "their side" and figured Hillary was a shoe-in for next Supreme Leader. No surprise, then, that I agree with your agreement with David Frum.
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Post by robeiae on Mar 8, 2018 9:11:41 GMT -5
I remember people railing against George Bush for increasing the power of the Presidency. Those same people were silent--or were approving--when Obama did the same (while Bush's defenders railed against Obama). I agree with Frum's premise, as well. It would be funny, if it wasn't so damaging.
The government we get, we deserve.
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Post by Don on Mar 8, 2018 9:11:45 GMT -5
The evil David Koch sounds off on tariffs. Corporate leaders must reject Trump’s tariffs...and a little something most people ignore when it comes to the Kochs...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2018 10:03:29 GMT -5
I'm reading David Frum's "Trumpocracy" right now. One of its central themes is that we've been building to our current moment through the last few administrations, bit by bit, pushing the game further and further... but people only freaked out when it was their side "losing"...and were comfortable as long as they trusted the guys in charge...and mostly we had enough reasonably competent people at the helm who cared enough about the well-being of the country that nothing was too disastrous... But now, unfortunately, we're in the hands of an administration who really does not care about even paying lip service to the rules, and who really doesn't know what it's doing, who doesn't have an opposing party in Congress to keep it in check, and so we're reaping the sad results of our collective failure to ratchet back earlier oversteps. I think that's right. I do think (obviously) that Trump is way, way the hell beyond anything we've seen before, and way the hell less competent, but the fact is, there have been gradual expansions of executive power and abuses of legislative process that made it possible for an incompetent (or worse) person to truly run amok. And now, yeah, I think that's what's happening. I share your hope that this administration serves as an important wake-up call that the rules of the game matter -- it's not just about temporary wins for your side. I hope to hell the next administration walks it the hell back. Our system of government depends on it. (I gotta admit I'm really, really afraid that it won't serve as such a wake-up call. That would be bad.) Anyway. A ton of industries and a pile of conservatives are screaming about how rotten these tariffs will be for industries other than the steel manufacturing industry, and for consumers. And of course our allies are furious and planning to retaliate. I gotta hope Trump backs off. Heh. Here's where I'm conservative -- I think it's generally an extremely bad idea to come out guns a'blazing with sudden radical change on economic stuff. This stuff requires thought and research into consequences, including unintended ones. And one thing is painfully clear -- Trump didn't do that. Gee, I distinctly remember after Trump was nominated that I repeatedly pointed out in another forum that there was still plenty of time for Obama to disassemble the imperial presidency before the election, just in case. Boy, did I get vilified for that, just as I was vilified for pointing out the problems with the imperial presidency for years before that. All by partisans who were happy to have an overly-powerful Supreme Leaser who was on "their side" and figured Hillary was a shoe-in for next Supreme Leader. No surprise, then, that I agree with your agreement with David Frum. To be fair Don, I wasn't one of the people vilifying you for that. indeed, I agreed with you. What HAS shifted for me (and what Frum's book does a nice job of showcasing) is the sense of urgency. We are no longer worrying about "Gee, what if we get a guy who grabs the power and runs amok and doesn't give a shit about the well-being of the country" -- we've got him. And we've got the perfect storm of the party that elected him being in control of both houses and a pile of people (including voters) willing and happy to enable him. And, of course, of that party systematically training its loyal voters to distrust the mainstream media and so hobbling an important check on him. And then, things have gotten whacko so quickly it's hard to keep it all in mind -- I honestly think part of why Trump gets away with this shit is that so much outrageous batshit is happening lots of people are tuning it out and not looking at the big picture. and, of course, those who adore the GOP agenda have an incentive to whistle even if they see it. The alt-right isn't enough to sustain this clown show. It's the whole crown of whistling enablers saying "but Obama!" "but Bush" that makes it possible. I have a forlorn hope that the tariff issue (which makes economic conservatives scream) might help bring some of the more sane Trump enablers round. But for many, I fear it will take something more important than impending economic disaster for the nation -- e.g., Stormy Daniels having an abortion.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2018 10:08:40 GMT -5
...in other words, I think we've moved from a "you know, this thing is a fire hazard; we should do something before something really bad happens" to a "WE ARE ACTUALLY ON FIRE NOW AND IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING STAT, THE ROOF WILL FALL IN AND THE HOUSE WILL BE REDUCED TO ASHES!"
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Post by Don on Mar 8, 2018 11:48:45 GMT -5
...in other words, I think we've moved from a "you know, this thing is a fire hazard; we should do something before something really bad happens" to a "WE ARE ACTUALLY ON FIRE NOW AND IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING STAT, THE ROOF WILL FALL IN AND THE HOUSE WILL BE REDUCED TO ASHES!" I saw a lot of what the previous regime did as proof of fire, particularly the imperialism. Yes, @cassandraw , I distinctly remember that you were also burned at the stake in that witch-hunt for accurately predicting the future. BTW, how many times do you have to be right before people stop taking your name allegorically? I don't even share your name and people refuse to listen.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2018 14:05:32 GMT -5
I think you might like the Frum book, Don. (I'm only halfway through, mind you, but based on what I've read so far.) Rob, Opty, and Amadan would probably like it, too.
The opening takes a fairly dispassionate, thoughtful "both sides have contributed to this place we are now, and here are some examples" -- and then proceeds to show how Trump and his administration have run with that ball to places way the hell past that of any previous administration, enabled, alas, by too many conservatives. More than anything else, it is really about "here is the problem with this administration from the point of view of preserving our republic, separation of powers, democratic norms, etc."
I suppose I like it because I agree that (of the many, many problems I have with this administration) this is the biggest problem. I hate some of Trump's policies with a passion, but the way they're being pushed through and what his administration is doing to the integrity of our system is even worse and harder to repair.
I've also been realizing, as I read it, just how many things I've almost forgotten about from early in the administration. So much has happened it's hard to catch one's breath and put it all in perspective.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2018 22:21:01 GMT -5
The tariff go into effect in 15 days. Canada and Mexico are exempt--for now. Our EU allies get hammered. And make no mistake, they'll retaliate.
I think this is pretty damn bad, to tell you the truth. My one bit of shadenfreude is that apparently GOP leaders are absolutely losing their shit over it (and Gary Cohn's resulting departure (because they think (as do I) that it could seriously damage the economy and relations with allies. I'm worried about consumer prices, too. But it's fun to watch them freak -- they made this bed and deserve to lie in it. My suggestion is they, yanno, remember they're a co-equal branch of government and start fucking acting like it.
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Post by maxinquaye on Mar 13, 2018 14:02:40 GMT -5
If we're alluding to That Other Site, then let's be clear that the political side of it became unreadable. I made no secret of the fact that I thought Hillary Clinton was a lousy, lousy candidate. Probably the worst candidate that the Democrats have fielded since Michael Dukakis. Even worse than that, because Dukakis at least believed what he was saying whereas with Clinton, half the time you suspected she was just saying things to say things. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Clinton would have been infinitely preferable to Trump. But she would have damaged your republic in other ways by driving down voter participation and increasing voter apathy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2018 14:39:07 GMT -5
I'd far rather see it damaged in that way (which would be rectified the next time a charismatic candidate came along) than in the ways Trump is damaging it. I'm a lot less sure we're going to recover from it -- certainly we will not recover soon.
Take aside my fears about what is happening domestically (I think I've gone on about those in a couple of threads). I have to think our allies are going to be wary of trusting us, not just while Trump is in office (that's a given), but thereafter, now that they've seen how easily we've let the yahoos take over our government.
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