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Post by robeiae on Mar 22, 2018 8:25:49 GMT -5
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Post by Amadan on Mar 22, 2018 11:36:14 GMT -5
I'm sure Joe Biden is not the only person who fantasizes about beating the hell out of Trump. But if some intemperate chest-puffing unbecoming of a former Vice President is the most damning thing you can say about him, it's pretty weak sauce.
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Post by Vince524 on Mar 22, 2018 11:40:49 GMT -5
I'm not a big Biden fan, for various reasons. This type of thing being one of them.
And yes, I'd feel better with him as Commander In chief than either Trump or Hillary.
Which is more a reflection on them then him. He's simply not as bad.
Can we shoot higher than that next election?
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Post by robeiae on Mar 22, 2018 15:25:22 GMT -5
I'm sure Joe Biden is not the only person who fantasizes about beating the hell out of Trump. But if some intemperate chest-puffing unbecoming of a former Vice President is the most damning thing you can say about him, it's pretty weak sauce. Trump's behavior and rhetoric is very shameful, far more often than not. He engages in the worst sorts of conduct for a sitting President, especially when it comes to his penchant for name-calling. But people who join him in the gutter deserve no more respect than he does, imo. It's amazing to me, this process I seem to watching happen right before my eyes: Trump-level discourse becoming the new normal for high-level politicos. Excuse Biden's doucheness if it makes you feel better, I guess, but imo your attitude is part of the problem, is part of the "why" behind Trump's ascension. I mean, get real. Biden talked about beating the hell out of a sitting President. That's in-fucking-excusable imo. Imagine Bush or Cheney saying the same thing about Obama. Or Clinton or Gore saying it about Bush. We'd have never heard the end of it. Moreover, Biden's stupidity is--above all else--simply feeding Trump's ego. As a practical approach, it's laughably stupid. |
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Post by haggis on Mar 22, 2018 22:23:50 GMT -5
I'm sure Joe Biden is not the only person who fantasizes about beating the hell out of Trump. But if some intemperate chest-puffing unbecoming of a former Vice President is the most damning thing you can say about him, it's pretty weak sauce. Excuse Biden's doucheness if it makes you feel better, I guess, but imo your attitude is part of the problem, is part of the "why" behind Trump's ascension. I mean, get real. Biden talked about beating the hell out of a sitting President. That's in-fucking-excusable imo. Imagine Bush or Cheney saying the same thing about Obama. Or Clinton or Gore saying it about Bush. We'd have never heard the end of it. No, he didn't. He really didn't. He said he probably would have taken him out behind the bleachers and beaten the hell out of him if if they were both back in high school together and he disrespected women the way he does today. Joe, of course, was bloviating as Joe is prone to do. Trump, as is his wont, challenged back the non-high school Smoking Joe, claiming he could take him. Meaning, "Bring it on." Frankly, I think they're both being silly. And if I'd been in their high school back in the day I would have beaten the hell out of both of them. |
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Post by Optimus on Mar 23, 2018 0:38:18 GMT -5
I'm not at all surprised that 99% of the news stories I've seen on this (including the one in the OP), misquote Biden. He was recounting a story of a time he was asked about Trump's "pussy grabber" statement and the part that the media conveniently omits is where he said, "I shouldn't have said that" (referring to what he said to the person who asked him that question) immediately after the quote media outlets keep running with.
In fact, the Washington Post article in the OP quotes what he said directly before and directly after "I shouldn't have said that," but suspiciously leaves out that one quick "mea culpa" line.
If you clutch those pearls any tighter they'll crack.
He was giving a talk about preventing sexual assault and protecting victims and in that talk he brought up the time the "sitting President" practically admitted to being a serial sexual harrasser, if not serial perpetuator of sexual assault.
The fact that we have such a garbage human who admits to sexual harrassment, has bragged of sexual assault, and has bragged that he used to use his power as pageant owner to walk backstage and gawk at naked teenage girls...THAT is what is "in-fucking-excusable."
Neither Obama nor Bush has ever openly admitted to being repulsive, sexual assaulting pieces of shit, so your "what ifs" about someone saying the same about one of them doesn't apply.
It wasn't Biden's best moment, he probably shouldn't have said it, and it's stooping down closer to Trump's bottom-scraping level, but I'm also not gonna get mad at what he said because what he said isn't anywhere close to being as bad as most of the dipshittery that Trump mouthfarts out of his fat orange face nearly every day.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 23, 2018 8:27:27 GMT -5
No, the really sad part here--for you, anyway--is that you oh-so-conveniently left out (as Opty observed), the first part of what Biden said that sets up the second part. While there might be some amusement to be found in watching two 70+ dudes duking it out behind the gym or in the street or in the square circle, it's small amusement to be sure. What is amusing is you trying to make this some sort of big deal and it's really not. I'm sure Joe Biden is not the only person who fantasizes about beating the hell out of Trump. But if some intemperate chest-puffing unbecoming of a former Vice President is the most damning thing you can say about him, it's pretty weak sauce. Trump's behavior and rhetoric is very shameful, far more often than not. He engages in the worst sorts of conduct for a sitting President, especially when it comes to his penchant for name-calling. But people who join him in the gutter deserve no more respect than he does, imo. Oh, puh-leeze. Biden was simply speaking a language Trump (and Trump supporters he wants to woo back to the Democrats in 2020) understand. Tough talk. Blunt talk. Trash talk. It's not about joining Trump in the gutter. Trump IS the gutter and Joe Biden on his most impolitic day has never bragged about grabbing women by the pussy. If you find Trump's behavior and rhetoric so very shameful, far more often than not, why don't you ditch his Twitter feed and spare yourself all that? Missed the 2016 Republican Presidential Debates, did'ja? Nice job at deflection there, but actually it's your attitude that is part of the problem. Trump's ascension wasn't buoyed by his critics, but by his supporters and enablers. Biden lapses into spasms of doucheness and that makes him a joke, but Trump revels in doucheness and that makes him a pig. Yup. There you go again. It's always "in-fucking-excusable" to you when someone REACTS to Trump's provocations. You really think Biden's Secret Service detail should arrest him for threatening Trump? That's fucking hilarious in its hair-on-fire hysteria. And Evil Dick Cheney was so disrespectful in his doucheness toward Obama, he did everything except threaten to kick the president's butt. But it would have been funnier than hell to see him try. You really don't understand how politics work, do you? Talking mad shit about Trump is never a bad strategy because he's an egotistical narcissist who is always thrown off his game when he gets angry. Most guys don't respond well when they're clenching their fists and see red from the blood in their eyes.  Trump can't help but lose his cool when someone pokes his delicate pride and vanity. Biden knows exactly what he's done here and while it doesn't play well with you, you're not part of the audience Biden knew it would play well with. As a practical approach, it's cunningly smart.  |
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Post by Amadan on Mar 23, 2018 8:47:08 GMT -5
I'm sure Joe Biden is not the only person who fantasizes about beating the hell out of Trump. But if some intemperate chest-puffing unbecoming of a former Vice President is the most damning thing you can say about him, it's pretty weak sauce. Trump's behavior and rhetoric is very shameful, far more often than not. He engages in the worst sorts of conduct for a sitting President, especially when it comes to his penchant for name-calling. But people who join him in the gutter deserve no more respect than he does, imo. It's amazing to me, this process I seem to watching happen right before my eyes: Trump-level discourse becoming the new normal for high-level politicos. Excuse Biden's doucheness if it makes you feel better, I guess, but imo your attitude is part of the problem, is part of the "why" behind Trump's ascension. I mean, get real. Biden talked about beating the hell out of a sitting President. That's in-fucking-excusable imo. Imagine Bush or Cheney saying the same thing about Obama. Or Clinton or Gore saying it about Bush. We'd have never heard the end of it. Moreover, Biden's stupidity is--above all else--simply feeding Trump's ego. As a practical approach, it's laughably stupid. You are being thoroughly disingenuous. There is a difference between being stupid and letting your mouth run away with you sometimes. Everyone knows Biden does the latter. And I am pretty sure even he would not say it was a "practical" approach - in fact, he immediately admitted as much. Further response is probably not necessary, because Opty said what I think pretty well. But you really need to get off this forced equivocating while pretending to be objective shtick. Biden didn't "join (Trump) in the gutter" and even acknowledging his words were probably not the most appropriate, he certainly deserves more respect than Trump. You deliberately ignored his qualifier - "if we were in high school" - and his immediate admission at the time that he shouldn't have said that. (His ability to ever admit that he might have said something he shouldn't alone makes him more respectable than Trump.) So did he let his mouth run away with him, as Biden is infamous for doing, and engage in a bit of smack talk? Sure. But he did not threaten a sitting President. He did not say "If I were face to face with Trump, I'd beat the hell out of him." He presented a hypothetical "back in high school" scenario. It was dumb and a little juvenile but even in the pre-Trump era would not have made the top 10 list of Most Stupid Things Said By a Politician in any given year. You know this. You understand all this perfectly well. We really don't have to explain the nuances to you, as we're doing. You're just scrabbling and digging and scratching to find some whatabouts to balance the scales, because as much as you may find Trump's odeur distasteful, you can't ever, ever, ever let a Republican get criticized without lodging an equal criticism of a Democrat, however far you have to stretch the truth to do it. |
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Post by Christine on Mar 25, 2018 21:36:00 GMT -5
I've been pondering this, and I think rob's point is fair. Biden is getting down in the dirt. He's walked it back, but that doesn't completely negate what he said, anymore than if Trump said something awful (which he has) and then claimed he shouldn't have said it (which he hasn't). So maybe Biden gets a few points for acknowledging he was acting like a shit. And here's my own bias: I personally didn't have a problem with Biden's rhetoric. His trash talk made me smile, quite frankly. Then again, if I had to justify what Biden said to any of my three sons, my only recourse would have been, "he doesn't mean it literally. He wouldn't actually do that." But couldn't that be said by Trump-supporting parents to their kids in regard to Trump's rhetoric? Rob is, I think, being consistent here, perhaps moreso than people who are excusing or forgiving Biden. I don't see rob's criticism here as "equivocating." He's upholding a standard. As far as I can see. The right standard, especially when it comes to the leaders of our country. ETA: Regardless, as much as I disagree with rob, he has not ever been disingenuous, imo. I think people need to consider more what that word means. Claiming people are not sincere in their opinions is a claim that should not be made lightly. |
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Post by Amadan on Mar 26, 2018 8:13:05 GMT -5
Well, I do think it's equivocating. You can recognize that two men are both being immature jerks, while also recognizing that one of them is being a worse jerk.
There are these things called context and nuance and timing and behavioral history that inform our judgements much more completely than individual statements taken in isolation.
Biden blurted out a stupid line about "If we were in high school, I'da beaten him up," and immediately walked it back. Dumb, a little embarrassing, but most people on this planet except for Trump fans would recognize it as an understandable statement of frustration, slightly funny, and of course, not really appropriate to say in public. No one thought Biden was actually challenging Trump to a fist fight. To say he "Got down in the gutter" with Trump is just plain hyperbole.
Trump's response, which he composed after having ample time to see and reflect upon what Biden said, was that of a lifelong bully, bragging about how Biden would "go down hard crying all the way." He's not just making a pithy retort, he actually wanted to convince his followers that he's a scary, tough guy who could totally beat up Joe Biden. He needed people to see that he is not afraid of Joe Biden. That he would totally be down for a fist fight with Joe Biden.
He's also the President of the United States.
I may be forgiving Biden, but that's because what Biden did was more forgivable than what Trump did. I don't think grown men should talk about who they can beat up unless they are just joking around and everyone knows it, but saying Biden and Trump are both in the same gutter is false equivalence. I do think rob is being disingenuous because he does not apply that strict standard of behavior everywhere and to everyone - only when he's trying to position critics of Trump as being "just as bad" as Trump, no matter how tortured the equivalence, and he knows why most of us are more offended by Trump's behavior than by Biden's, but he is pretending not to.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 26, 2018 9:32:53 GMT -5
I've been pondering this, and I think rob's point is fair. Biden is getting down in the dirt. He's walked it back, but that doesn't completely negate what he said, anymore than if Trump said something awful (which he has) and then claimed he shouldn't have said it (which he hasn't). So maybe Biden gets a few points for acknowledging he was acting like a shit. And here's my own bias: I personally didn't have a problem with Biden's rhetoric. His trash talk made me smile, quite frankly. Then again, if I had to justify what Biden said to any of my three sons, my only recourse would have been, "he doesn't mean it literally. He wouldn't actually do that." But couldn't that be said by Trump-supporting parents to their kids in regard to Trump's rhetoric? Rob is, I think, being consistent here, perhaps moreso than people who are excusing or forgiving Biden. I don't see rob's criticism here as "equivocating." He's upholding a standard. As far as I can see. The right standard, especially when it comes to the leaders of our country. ETA: Regardless, as much as I disagree with rob, he has not ever been disingenuous, imo. I think people need to consider more what that word means. Claiming people are not sincere in their opinions is a claim that should not be made lightly. Thanks, Christine, but I already understood what "disingenuous" meant.
In the way Amadan explained it, it wasn't a personal attack on a member's integrity as much as it was an observation on his commenting style and agree or disagree, he's not the only one who sees it. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 10:54:13 GMT -5
Uncle Joe was bloviating, as alas, he does at times, which is true (and has always been true) of a certain type of person and politician. But he's nowhere--nowhere--in a class with Trump and I concur, in all respects, with Amadan's reasoning on why.
By and large, until fairly recently, I think it was more or less fair and safe to observe that both sides were guilty of certain behavior. Indeed, I am sympathetic to the idea of looking at the board in one's party's own eye before removing the mote in the other side's eye.
The thing is, I think Trump, his administration, and much of the reigning GOP have gone so far beyond the pale that it is no longer fair to compare them. In fact, at times it is downright detrimental because it expands the realm of normal political behavior to a dangerous degree.
If there were a chart of normal bloviating pre-Trump, IMO Biden's would fall on the far end of what is acceptable, for sure. But it would be on the chart. Whereas Trump's regular everyday behavior requires one to add several pages in landscape mode to the chart. He routinely goes where no President has gone before and ever should go, and he's utterly unapologetic about it. Indeed, he's proud of it. Whereas Biden both had the qualifier "if we were in high school" (which quite obviously they are not and never will be again), and immediately acknowledged that his comment was a bit of bloviating. Compare that to Trump's daily unapologetic stream of insults to both public figures and private individuals, his demeaning nicknames, his direct threats to North Korea, etc.
They aren't comparable.
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Post by nighttimer on Mar 26, 2018 20:03:09 GMT -5
Uncle Joe was bloviating, as alas, he does at times, which is true (and has always been true) of a certain type of person and politician. But he's nowhere-- nowhere--in a class with Trump and I concur, in all respects, with Amadan's reasoning on why. By and large, until fairly recently, I think it was more or less fair and safe to observe that both sides were guilty of certain behavior. Indeed, I am sympathetic to the idea of looking at the board in one's party's own eye before removing the mote in the other side's eye. The thing is, I think Trump, his administration, and much of the reigning GOP have gone so far beyond the pale that it is no longer fair to compare them. In fact, at times it is downright detrimental because it expands the realm of normal political behavior to a dangerous degree. If there were a chart of normal bloviating pre-Trump, IMO Biden's would fall on the far end of what is acceptable, for sure. But it would be on the chart. Whereas Trump's regular everyday behavior requires one to add several pages in landscape mode to the chart. He routinely goes where no President has gone before and ever should go, and he's utterly unapologetic about it. Indeed, he's proud of it. Whereas Biden both had the qualifier "if we were in high school" (which quite obviously they are not and never will be again), and immediately acknowledged that his comment was a bit of bloviating. Compare that to Trump's daily unapologetic stream of insults to both public figures and private individuals, his demeaning nicknames, his direct threats to North Korea, etc. They aren't comparable. Not even close. I recall Uncle Joe's cringe-inducing remarks to a Black audience warning them the Republicans "are gonna put y'all in chains." That was a "child, please" moment. But Donald Trump has refused to speak to majority Black audiences. The NAACP has invited Trump to speak at their convention. The National Urban League has invited Trump to speak at their convention. The National Association of Black Journalists have invited Trump to speak at their convention but he sent Omaraosa instead and she promptly showed her ass and turned her appearance into a complete shitshow. This is no accident. Trump prefers to speak to handpicked, friendly audiences where he can bask in their applause and adulation and no one will confront him. Which is why Kyle Kashuv is on his 2nd trip to the White House while Emma Gonzalez and David Hogg haven't been invited at all. Joe Biden is a classic White Democrat liberal who means well but occasionally has a nasty brain cramp and word vomit ensues. Trump has no political allegiances. He's only into whatever he "thinks" at that moment and then he just runs his mouth telling Black voters "what do you have to lose?" and how they all live in war-torn hellholes and speaking of holes, don't forget about those African "shithole" countries because I never will. Some politicians aren't necessarily comfortable speaking to people they have little to nothing in common with. Biden is awkward, Trump is indifferent. Biden means well, but his mouth engages before his brain. Trump doesn't mean well and simply doesn't give a damn because he's never had to. Some politicians thrive on being divisive and scapegoating and belittling and hating on anyone who isn't among his favored groups. Biden isn't that guy. Trump is. |
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Post by Christine on Mar 26, 2018 22:03:37 GMT -5
Well, I do think it's equivocating. You can recognize that two men are both being immature jerks, while also recognizing that one of them is being a worse jerk. I agree with your take on the two of them. I liked your first post in this thread because I totally agreed with it. Like I said, I personally didn't find anything wrong with Biden's statement, walkback, etc. I think Biden is a genuinely good person, so his gaffs and emotional outbursts come across as funny or endearing to me. Right. But judgments are also personal things. We view "context" and "nuance" through lenses colored by our preconceptions. Me: Biden is a good person; of course Biden didn't mean that; he just lost it for a minute because he was understandably upset by the Access Hollywood video. (I think I'm absolutely right.) But then you have a Trump supporter who says: Trump is a good person; of course he didn't mean that; he just lost it for a minute because he was understandably upset that people would talk badly about him. (I think they're absolutely wrong.) So where do we stand? We've got two politicians talking trash neither one of them should be. That one of these people is a good person and the other is arguably a "garbage person" (kudos to Opty for that description; I like it very much) does not matter to rob. He is not looking at each individual's behavior and rhetoric as relative to the other's, nor in relation to their reputations otherwise. He's simply talking about a standard: What politicians should not say, to what level they should not stoop, even momentarily. He did not compare Biden's behavior to Trump's. Everyone else did. I read this short thread numerous times, and I understand "Biden deserves no more respect" to be in the context of TRASH TALK, not in a general way, not respect as a person. I.e,. Biden shouldn't be given a pass because he (theoretically) wants to beat up an asshole/pervert/whatever like Trump. It's not the sort of thing that politicians should be saying, period. And yes, he's an ex-VP, but he might run for POTUS. (In which case I will vote for him, but that's neither here nor there). Again, I agree with you. Having said that, claiming that rob is equivocating isn't supported by anything he posted here, as far I can see. Rob started the thread to call out Biden for what he said. He didn't equivocate Biden to Trump, nor did he compare Biden to Trump. You guys did that. This is what rob said: Trump's behavior and rhetoric is very shameful, far more often than not. He engages in the worst sorts of conduct for a sitting President, especially when it comes to his penchant for name-calling. But people who join him in the gutter deserve no more respect than he does, imo. It's amazing to me, this process I seem to watching happen right before my eyes: Trump-level discourse becoming the new normal for high-level politicos. Excuse Biden's doucheness if it makes you feel better, I guess, but imo your attitude is part of the problem, is part of the "why" behind Trump's ascension. I mean, get real. Biden talked about beating the hell out of a sitting President. That's in-fucking-excusable imo. Imagine Bush or Cheney saying the same thing about Obama. Or Clinton or Gore saying it about Bush. We'd have never heard the end of it. Moreover, Biden's stupidity is--above all else--simply feeding Trump's ego. As a practical approach, it's laughably stupid. Where is he pretending not to understand your (our) disgust for Trump? He's saying, by my reading, that Trump is definitively a bad person, but that this is no excuse for joining him "in the gutter" -- i.e., the trash talk. You guys (and me) have essentially been defending Biden because Trump is worse. Rob did not equate Biden and Trump. You guys downplayed Biden's rhetoric, and then took offense when rob didn't accept your attempt to do so. I understand both positions, but it seems clear to me that what rob is saying doesn't mean he thinks Biden is the same as Trump as a person. He means the standard needs to be the standard when it comes to political discourse, and downplaying it when it's from the good guy only gives fuel to the opposition. I can agree with that. Admittedly, I would be feel a bit more secure in my interpretation here if rob were to specifically use the phrase "in-fucking-excusable" for some of Trump's rhetoric, but I'm guessing that wouldn't be a problem for him. Anyhoo. I think haggis had the best post in the thread. Theoretically beat the silliness out of both of them. |
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Post by Amadan on Mar 27, 2018 8:33:21 GMT -5
Okay, I still think you are objectively wrong. Your basic argument is that our relative judgments of how bad Trump and Biden were are subjective, and a Trump supporter would find Biden's statements just as bad. In a totally subjective universe, that might be true, but let's suppose for the sake of argument that we can't judge Trump and Biden as people - they both come to us as unknown individuals and all we have are their statements in the immediate situation to judge them by.
Biden: Spontaneously expresses a hypothetical "If we were in high school" scenario, then immediately walks it back.
Trump: With time to consider a response, utters something much more belligerent and derogatory, shows no indication that he thinks this was in any way appropriate.
By any reasonable standard, they were both engaging in unbecoming trash talk, but one man's behavior was worse.
I don't think rob is pretending not to understand our disgust for Trump. I think rob is pretending that we are "excusing" Biden's behavior and condemning Trump's because of partisan bias, and that without partisan bias, we'd agree that Biden's behavior was equally bad. This is not true and rob knows it's not true and he knows why.
For the record, if Trump had said what Biden did ("If we were in high school...") and Biden had responded with a Tweet about how Trump would "go down hard, crying all the way" -- I would be disgusted by both of them, but think that what Trump said was just typical Trump (like Biden shooting off his mouth was typical Biden), but that Biden's reaction was ridiculous and over the top and completely inappropriate. IOW, I'd think Biden came off looking worse in that exchange.
Also, when rob says Biden is "no more respectable" than Trump, or that he "joined him in the same gutter," that is equivocating. It is saying they are equally bad.
They're not.
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Trump can't help but lose his cool when someone pokes his delicate pride and vanity. Biden knows exactly what he's done here and while it doesn't play well with you, you're not part of the audience Biden knew it would play well with. 
