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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 15:56:34 GMT -5
An epic thread from one of our Republican representatives:
Yes, NT and Mark, I totally know that Democrats have been saying this straight through, and yes indeed, I DO give them points. But given how appallingly cowardly Republican Congress critters overall have been, given how much shit Amash is going to take from his side for taking this position (it's gonna be a lot), wow, this is really something. And man, it really shows what a pile of shits his fellow GOP reps have been in comparison. (I'm sure he's right that most of them haven't so much as bothered to read the report.) He uncompromisingly takes them on, he takes Barr on, he takes Trump on, and damn, I agree with every single word.
This kind of thing should not be rare -- not in the circumstances in which we find ourselves -- but it is. It's extraordinary.
I think (hope) ultimately this guy and all the people with the courage to speak truth about this president and this administration are going to be the heroes in the history books. But meanwhile, in the present, this guy has taken the difficult road, aligning himself with his Democratic colleagues on the side of truth and the constitution. Damn, it's beautiful.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 17:36:54 GMT -5
I must add this.
Another reason I celebrate on the rare-as-fuck occasions when GOP reps stand up to Trump (I don't think any actual Congress critters have done so as adamantly as this--am I wrong?) is that every one of them is a chink in the complacency of GOPers, both reps and voters, who want to blow off the Mueller report and Trump criticism as mere partisan attacks. It's also why I celebrate the conservative NeverTrump pundits, but it's that much more important to get some actual people in the damn government speaking up.
There shouldn't be a partisan divide on this -- there really shouldn't. I find it hard to believe anyone could actually read the Mueller report and conclude that Trump wouldn't be indicted for obstruction were he not president, that he hasn't bypassed Nixon by leaps and bounds, and that his campaign's Russian contacts -- whether or not they add up to all the elements for a criminal conspiracy charge -- are disturbing as fuck.
Anyway. Whether we impeach or don't, I want people who've been saying "oh, those partisan Democrats are just biased leftist Trump haters" to either be convinced or else to scuttle away. Every Justin Amash helps. So hail to Amash -- this really took courage.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 9:12:51 GMT -5
Lol. Deranged Donald (George Conway's nickname) fires back:
I really am mystified by how anyone can look at this guy and say "oh, yeah, this is President of the United States material here"--let alone how they can look at the Mueller report (or hell, the news) and think he should stay the president. I suspect that a generation or so from now, a good number of people will be denying they ever really supported him, because it's going to look just that bizarre.
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Post by mikey on May 19, 2019 11:52:49 GMT -5
I think one of the things people will remember is that after a lengthy investigation from Bobby Mueller, verdict is NO COLLUSION! from Trump or his staff.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 12:11:49 GMT -5
Mikey, I would bet my entire IRA that you didn't read Mueller's report and don't have the faintest idea what it says.
Let's take "collusion" aside for a minute. (In fact, you're wrong, by the way. Mueller said that he could not establish all the elements of criminal conspiracy with the Russian government (not the same thing). Mueller noted that "did not establish" did not mean that there wasn't evidence of it (in fact, he laid out some very disturbing evidence), or that it exonerated the president, but merely that the investigation could not definitively establish all of the elements of that particular charge--not the same as an exoneration, and he explicitly said so. He also noted that members of the Trump campaign had refused to give evidence and/or had deleted it -- which may well have been a stumbling block. Don't believe me? Read the fucking report.)
But let's pretend for a moment that Mueller explicitly exonerated the president on all things Russia and said that the president's Russia contacts were A-OK. (Spoiler -- he didn't. )
There's a whole 'nother half to that report. Obstruction of justice is a felony. It's one of the felonies that brought Nixon down. Mueller established ALL of the elements of it -- several instances of it, in fact. Besides Mueller, Amash and I, 1000 federal prosecutors, Republican as well as Democrat, experts in this area, opined that all of the elements for obstruction were established.
The president committed a felony. The only reason he hasn't been indicted is because of a Department of Justice memo saying that a sitting president can't be indicted -- Mueller said as much, and also went out of his way to note that Trump could be indicted once he left office (I am betting he will be), and could be impeached for it right now. The only reason he may not be impeached and removed is because of political cowardice/calculation and/or corruption.
That apparently doesn't bother you, but that's not because you're a patriot.
ETA:
If anyone other than Mikey would like me to do a thread going into some detail on what Mueller found with regard to Russian contacts and the Trump campaign (or for that matter, with regard to obstruction) I'll do it when I have time. I'm not going to do it for Mikey because frankly, I know he doesn't actually give a shit and so I can't see why I should take hours of my free time to do it for him.
That said, there is the Mueller report itself, which you seriously should read, and any number of excellent detailed analyses out there (and I'm betting several of you have at least read/listened to some of those). But for fucks sake, don't rely on one that does half quotes of Mueller and lots of paraphrasing--that's a red flag for partisan spin. And look for one by someone with expertise. In fact, read more than one analysis, if you aren't going to read the report itself. You don't have to (maybe shouldn't?) rely on my word or that of the experts, though -- you can read the report! Even redacted, it's damning.
If you don't want to do all that, okay, whatever. But ffs, don't go opining on what the report does and doesn't say and trying to debate it without doing your homework first! To be clear: since no one else is doing that except Mikey, that isn't intended as a smack at anyone else. I totally get that the report is more than 400 pages long and a big hunk of stuff to digest and that people have lives. But if anyone wants to debate me on what it says (as opposed to wanting to hear me babble about it), I will ask that you read the thing first. I think that's reasonable, especially since 1000 prosecutors agree with my reading.
Mikey? If I'm wrong that you haven't read it, then please support your arguments with quotes from the Mueller report. Then game on. I'll be more than happy to take on your analysis. Don't forget to discuss obstruction. Until then, whatever.
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Post by mikey on May 19, 2019 13:15:03 GMT -5
Cassandra, Donald Trump is POTUS whether you like it or not. Trump won the Mueller fiasco, which likely secured his second term.
An overwhelming number of voters simply don't care what is in the Mueller report, because it's not important. Oh I'm sure a few geeky anti Trumpers are all about the guts of the report, but that don't change the ultimate results of the report, which is blah.
And please, no need for a thread on my account because you're right, I don't care. It's over, done, kaput.
I'm much more interested in what is going to drive voters to the polls in 2020. Hoping it'll b more than "I hate Trump".
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 17:21:49 GMT -5
"An overwhelming number of voters don't care" -- oh? According to the polls, more voters right now think Trump should be impeached than thought Nixon should be impeached. (and as I noted in another thread, that's despite the fact most voters right now don't even know what's in the Mueller report beyond whatever spin they've heard. As with Nixon, those numbers would almost certainly increase if there were public hearings about the findings. ) Most voters disapprove of Trump.
I don't think you have any idea what's in any polls that aren't on Fox News and Russia Today. And seriously, you have No. Fucking. Idea. what is in the Mueller report. (You do not dispute my assertion that you haven't read it--I assume, therefore, that you cede that fact.) It is not, in fact, "blah." It is, in fact, pretty horrifying. And it's relevant that our president is a lying grifter who has committed obstruction and has had numerous seedy dealings with foreign adversaries -- whether you think it is or not.
I also think that even if Trump were the most popular president ever --rather than the most unpopular (he's never broken 50%) -- someone whose actions constitute obstruction of justice should be impeached and removed, period. (Note that we'd be getting Pence, which certainly doesn't thrill me.)
I already said I wouldn't do squat for you in terms of a thread because you have made it pretty obvious that you have no interest in facts, truth, integrity, the rule of law, the Constitution, separation of powers, and checks and balances. The offer was explicitly addressed to the rest of the forum, who I know, whatever their political differences with me and each other, do care about that stuff, but may not have had time to read and digest the report. I'm also glad to recommend some good discussions of it. (In fact, I think I have done so in the Mueller thread, and Opty posted one too, as I recall.)
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Post by nighttimer on May 19, 2019 22:03:38 GMT -5
Yes, NT and Mark, I totally know that Democrats have been saying this straight through, and yes indeed, I DO give them points. But given how appallingly cowardly Republican Congress critters overall have been, given how much shit Amash is going to take from his side for taking this position (it's gonna be a lot), wow, this is really something. And man, it really shows what a pile of shits his fellow GOP reps have been in comparison. (I'm sure he's right that most of them haven't so much as bothered to read the report.) He uncompromisingly takes them on, he takes Barr on, he takes Trump on, and damn, I agree with every single word. This kind of thing should not be rare -- not in the circumstances in which we find ourselves -- but it is. It's extraordinary. I think (hope) ultimately this guy and all the people with the courage to speak truth about this president and this administration are going to be the heroes in the history books. But meanwhile, in the present, this guy has taken the difficult road, aligning himself with his Democratic colleagues on the side of truth and the constitution. Damn, it's beautiful. My intention was to ignore this thread, but since I was name-checked, I'll say this about Justin Amash's "extraordinary" stance: Big Fucking Deal. If you believe Amash has aligned himself with the Dems on calling out Trump, I guess we have very different views on what's beautiful is. I find nothing particularly courageous about a Republican congresscritter who is in the House minority and has nothing to fear but Trump's wrath, voted repeatedly to repeal the Affordable Care Act, and is one of the cavemen who make up the Freedom Caucus. Now maybe Amash will face a Trump-supported primary challenger, but seriously, who gives a shit about one far right-winger being swapped out for yet another far right-winger? The way I see it is there are a few liberals who hold out hope that once Trump is ghost the GOP will come to its sense and purge themselves of their slavish fealty to him. You're not the only one who believes this. Joe Biden does and so does a lot of the old school press corps. I do not. Justin Amash is not the first sign of a Republican growing a spine. He's an abnormality in what has become an abomination of a political party.
You crushing on Amash is unfortunate, Cassandra, but it's not out of character. You've done this time and again since 2016 with Mitt Romney, Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, Bob Corker and Jeff Flake. ALL of them are unworthy of the admiration you have lavished upon them. It's real easy to talk shit about Trump when you're in a gerrymandered district, a safe one that keeps reelecting you and you're not running for reelection or retiring. Otherwise, the same guys who bashed on Trump three years ago are among his most loyal foot soldiers like Lindsay Graham, Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz. But the main reason I give zero fucks about Amash is in his home state of Michigan, there was (and is) a contaminated water crisis in Flint, and when time came for those to be counted to lend assistance to the city, Amash actively opposed the federal government's involvement. Anyone who doesn't give a shit about poor people, babies and children consuming contaminated water will never have any shits given by me for them. You know what's "heroic" about remaining part of a party that pushes legislation to force women to bear children they don't want even if they're produced by disgusting incest or violent rape, prosecutes them if they leave their backasswards Republican state to seek an abortion in another and will lock up a doctor who performs a medical procedure for 99 years? Nothing.I have a requirement for anyone to be deemed a hero. First and most vital is to do something heroic. This ain't that.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 23:46:51 GMT -5
You require, apparently , lockstep agreement with everything you believe in in order to salute someone.
I don't. Never have. I'm operating out of an entirely different rule book.
Someone who sucks in a dozen ways and I generally want to kick can nonetheless do something I think is awesome, and I'll give them what I think is their due. That's how I roll.
I think Amash gets some serious credit for taking a more powerful stance against Trump than Nancy Pelosi and Jerry Nadler, especially since his whole party, Trump , and Duh Base will shred him for it, and people like you won't give him a lick of credit.He's got nothing to gain and everything to lose politically, and he did it all the same.
I think it's a big deal. It's interesting that one thing other Republican reps do NOT seem to be doing is jumping to Dear Leader's defense. Amash made them look like the assholes they are, and they know it. They are waiting in their cowardly way to see which way the wind blows. They're praying everyone throws rocks at Amash, just like Mikey and you. I won't be joining you.
Don't give a damn if you or anyone agrees. By my standards, this action was brave and admirable, even if he never does another thing I like. We'll see if it makes a difference.
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Post by nighttimer on May 20, 2019 13:25:29 GMT -5
You require, apparently , lockstep agreement with everything you believe in in order to salute someone. I don't. Never have. I'm operating out of an entirely different rule book.
Good for you, but careful you don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. I don't operate out of an entirely different rule book. The only value The Rules have to me is knowing what they are so I know which ones to break.
I require nothing from you except for you to please try to recall that YOU dropped MY name. You asked for this smoke and you got this smoke. You require, apparently, confirmation that you are a hard-charging rebel who calls your own shots. There's nothing about Justin Amash that requires a salute beyond one middle raised finger.
But that's not how I roll.
If you're my enemy six days a week kicking me in my ass and making life as hellish as you possibly can, do you deserve a pass because on Sundays you go to church and pray to the Lord to forgive your trespasses? Hell no, you don't. That's just common sense. But since common sense isn't common, let me put this in another way.
Fuck Justin Amash. Fuck Justin Amash today. Fuck Justin Amash yesterday. Fuck Justin Amash tomorrow. Give him your due. I will save mine for my friends, not my enemies. Pretty sure I already explained why I'm not getting the tingle up my leg about Amash you are. Be my guest if you want to shower him with slobbering kisses. I certainly won't tell you can't. But I won't be joining you in kissing his ass. Who asked you to? People who say they don't give a damn if anyone agrees with them give a lot of damns that people know they don't give a damn. Your standards are not my standards and your heroes are not my heroes. Champion whomever you like, but save the attitude when somebody doesn't applaud your choice.
"We'll see if it makes a difference." Oh, sure. Just as much difference as Jeff Fake made when he was the recipient of the coveted Cassandra's Favorite Republican This Week trophy and that's no difference at all.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 14:08:28 GMT -5
Oh ffs. I dropped your name not as some kind of nasty call-out, but just to note that I anticipated both you and markesq (as resident liberals here on TCG) both to point out (correctly) that plenty of Democrats had taken that same position, to note that in fact I agree with that and that I do gave them points for it, and to explain why I care about the fact Amash did it, and why IMO it matters. If you want to take absolutely everything as some kind of personal insult, and from someone whom you know mostly wants the same things as you do, I guess I can't do much about it. Personally, I think political things work out more often when we sometimes get people crossing the aisle to join forces with people on the other side on things that count instead of just mindlessly lining up on pure partisan lines. That's how we saved the ACA. That might be how we push Trump out the door. I think it's counterproductive to just throw rocks at people we usually disagree with when, for once, they do something we think is the right thing. It gives that much more of a disincentive for them to do it, since then they get rocks from both sides instead of just one. You do you. I'm doing me.
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Post by nighttimer on May 20, 2019 19:43:35 GMT -5
Oh ffs. I dropped your name not as some kind of nasty call-out, but just to note that I anticipated both you and markesq (as resident liberals here on TCG) both to point out (correctly) that plenty of Democrats had taken that same position, to note that in fact I agree with that and that I do gave them points for it, and to explain why I care about the fact Amash did it, and why IMO it matters. Well, that's what anticipation gets you.
I really could not care less what positions "plenty of Democrats" take. I'm a liberal more than I am a Democrat. The Democratic Party is a means to an end to me and nothing more. If the Republican Party weren't such a bastion of bigots, morons and shitheels, I might roll with them, but since they are, I don't. The Democrats are a motley collection of losers and whiners who say they stand for things right until it's time to compromise them away the way Chuck "Let's Make A Deal" Schumer does with appalling frequency. I don't despise Schumer the way I do Mitch McConnell, but I have to give the Dirty Turtle some respect because at least he stands behind what he believes in even though they're all terrible things to believe in.
Schumer would dive head-first into a toilet bowl full of explosive diarrhea if somebody told him there was a dollar in there. He's worthless, has no balls, and the main reason nobody wants to run for the Senate. Who'd want to spend millions of dollars for the privilege of having a front row seat to The Dirty Turtle making The Shit Diver his bitch?
Oh, you mean like Bernie Sanders? Look, Cassandra, are there some of same issues we both want to see come to fruition? Yeah, there are, but how we go about getting it is where we part company. You're very much in the mainstream and you ascribe principles to the Democrats that many of those in the Democratic leadership no longer embody. In the election the American people sent to the House the most diverse group of representatives ever, including a young woman who upset an incumbent who was eye-balling replacing Nancy Pelosi as Speaker. He took the challenge lightly and got gobsmacked. What has Pelosi and the party establishment done in response? Do their damnedest to protect incumbents and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Democrats love diversity. It makes for great photo-ops. Then they tell the kids to get the hell out of the room and let the adults run the show. The Dems have a big tent, but they also have a kid's table they make their more troublesome members sit and all it takes to be labeled troublesome is to defy the status quo and deviate from the party line. That's great for the supporters of the status quo. Not so much for the opponent of the status quo because it sucks.
You're a good person, Cassandra, but I find some of your takes on politics more hope than reality. You want to make nicey-nice with "people on the other side." I don't. Not because I'm mindlessly lining up on purely partisan lines, but because I don't want to expend my time and energy reaching out to people who hate my guts because I don't look like them, act like them and think like them. What's so goddamned great about trying to strike up a dialogue with a Ted Cruz or Laura Ingraham or Charles Koch, D'nesh D'Souza, Candace Owens or Mike Pence? Fuck them.
It's not counterproductive to throw rocks at people we usually disagree with when they occasionally do something we think is the right thing. It's counterproductive to lavish them with praise and rewards because they just happen not to be a flaming asshole for one day. Justin Amash is not the harbinger of anti-Trump Republicans rising up en masse or maybe you haven't noticed that NOT ONE REPUBLICAN on Capitol Hill has joined him in condemning President Pussygrabber. He's all alone except for the libs cheering him on because they're so hard up for a conservative that makes a little sense.
I gave that up for dead after reading It's Even Worse Than It Looks by Norman Ornstein and Thomas Mann and they nailed in one paragraph everything that is so bad about the current GOP, "The Republican party is “an insurgent outlier—ideologically extreme, contemptuous of the inherited and social and economic policy regime; scornful of compromise,unpersuaded by conventional understanding of facts, evidence, and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition.”
And you think you're going to turn them around with sweet talk and a bottle of good wine? You got jokes. Who was Justin Amash to you prior to his tweets about Trump being impeachment-adjacent after reading The Mueller Report? How many posts will I find of you writing about Amash in such laudatory language? I might be wrong, but I suspect the number of such posts will run somewhere between zero and less than zero.
I'd rather spend my time reaching out, rallying and mobilizing the millions of eligible voters who didn't vote in 2016 than doing outreach to the Deplorables who voted their fears, prejudices and hatreds in 2016. I'd rather fight to ensure the right to vote is protected for every American who is eligible as well as those who have returned to society after incarceration. It seems a much better expenditure of effort to motivate the opponents of Trump to vote him out in 2020 than trying to convert those who can't wait to repeat the awful mistake they made in 2016.
Maybe before you try to hash things out with complete strangers who voted for Trump, start right here with Mikey and celawson. Turn THEM around with your sweet words, logical reasoning, and rational arguments and calls for civility first and maybe then you'll have something substantial to base your hope upon. I think you'll be wasting your time, but it's your time to waste.
Until then, ask yourself one question: where are all the fucking conservative Republicans looking to work together with al the fucking liberal Democrats? I can't find a one, but then I wasn't looking. Maybe you'll have better luck. In the meantime, why don't you make a donation to the Justin Amash 2020 reelection campaign? I'm sure he'll be happy to take your money and shit on every blessed thing you stand for.
On this and this alone, you can bet your ass on.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 7:58:28 GMT -5
Justin Amash, I'm afraid, is far more amenable to reason and logic than either celawson or Mikey or the typical Trump fan. Maybe because he's not a Trump fan. I don't agree with him on everything by a long shot, but he looks at facts and law and draws logical conclusions from them rather than blowing them off or twisting himself into ridiculous pretzels trying to defend the indefensible. I'm afraid that at this point, if Trump shot someone on 5th Avenue, Mikey would shrug and say "so what?", and ce would find some way to blame Nancy Pelosi.
I wouldn't waste my breath trying to persuade the people still actively defending the indefensible. But the country is not simply divided into celawson and Mikey versus you, me, and Mark. (ETA: Nor, by the way, do I lump celawson and Mikey together. They don't actually share much in common except one unfortunate trait -- doubling down on Trump in disregard or downright defiance of fact, law, and logic. But they don't, as far as I can see, share much in the way of values -- they represent two different strands of die-hard Trump support. But again, the country isn't divided neatly into die-hard Trump supporters and die-hard Trump opposers. We've got a big pile of people who don't like Trump but aren't up in arms (yet) for whatever reason, and another big pile who are kind of oblivious. It's a lost cause to target the die-hards -- they will only double down right up until the crash. It's the others that are worth working on. If we pull enough of them on board, Trump is toast.)
Plenty of people don't like Trump but aren't sure whether he should be removed from office or is really so terribly harmful. Those are the people worth working on. And in politics, it's also the people who know damn well he's awful but are afraid of political blowback.
I know you lump all non-liberals into a single indistinguishable mass. Doesn't mean you're correct.
This isn't over yet. There's an ominous silence from a ton of conservatives on Justin Amash's stance. I find that interesting and significant. Amash's stance has also put some pressure on Democrats in Congress to impeach. Many are welcoming it; many are not. I happen to be on board with those who welcome it -- but I only got there after reading the Mueller report. (By the way, NT, have you read the Mueller report? I'm just saying -- it moved me to a new place on impeachment.) He may be only one guy, but this is no longer a purely one party thing. That matters.
Remember when you eviscerated me for pages insisting John McCain would vote yes on repealing the ACA? I'm not omniscient and I'm not always right, but I'm also not always wrong, if you'll check your memory. Maybe wait to see how this pans out before declaring you're right and I'm a fool?
Nixon took time. This is actually unfolding faster than Nixon, but that's hard to appreciate from the perspective of living in it rather than looking at a done deal in the history books. As I've said before, I think people have been expecting one silver bullet would take Trump down, one Arya Stark with a dagger taking down Trumpism in a blow, and that's just not how this works. It's not how Nixon came down, it's not how Trump will come down. This is going to be the Titanic's compartments filling one by one as some doomed first-class passengers swill champagne and boast about how the ship is unsinkable because it's still floating and the lights are on. Meanwhile, some are down in the engine room frantically trying to bail water and plug the hole. Others are moving for, or at least eyeing, the life rafts. I think the ship is doomed, and it will be the ones in the last category who have the right idea and will survive politically. We'll see.
I think there's been a sea change, and I think the tide is turning against Trump. I think Amash has blown a hole in the GOP wall surrounding Trump, and that it's going to matter. We'll see if I'm right.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 10:31:42 GMT -5
This guy is not Jeff Flake. He's not dithering and backing down. He's going to back impeachment if Nancy and the gang will go for it. I think we may have a new maverick in the GOP:
See also this thread he posted on Twitter yesterday, in answer to all the blowback he's getting (click to get the full thread -- I gotta do some work):
Sure, maybe no one else in the GOP will have the courage to follow his lead. But writing this guy off as weak and dithering and likely to back off this position -- yeah, I don't think so, not after this, not even if it costs him his seat.
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Post by prozyan on May 21, 2019 10:55:49 GMT -5
Amash is about as Republican as Bernie Sanders is Democrat.
I'm not seeing the break in the ranks.
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