Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 13:36:36 GMT -5
I have a sincere question for any of you who don't vote lockstep with a party -- e.g., if in elections you sometimes seriously consider voting for a candidate who belongs to a third party or to the opposing party from the one you usually vote for. I think here that might include robeiae , prozyan , Optimus , Vince524 , and haggis . I'm not sure any of you will be interested in answering, but what the heck. I'm having an argument on Twitter with some Warren supporters. They are convinced she can win in the general election, whereas I belong to the faction of people who will vote for her if she's the Dem nominee, but not in the primaries, largely because I fear she won't be strong enough in a general election. I fear this for many of the Dem candidates, but of the leading candidates, I fear it most with her, largely because I think she unfortunately rouses the same active animosity from the same quarters that Hillary does, and has done so for so long that she can't overcome it. (Although Buttigieg and Harris poll worse than Warren does among Democrats, I rather suspect that Buttigieg at least might do better with swing voters than Warren would, and Harris might, too. And I'm pretty confident Biden would do better with swing voters than Warren. Sanders might too, I regret to say.) And swing voters are my main concern. Frankly, any Democrat, liberal, or progressive who would pout and stay home in 2020 because their favorite nominee didn't win is an idiot. If you fall into one of those three categories, you should be dragging yourself over broken glass to vote for the Democratic candidate in 2020, because by far your worst case scenario is going to be Trump. But I realize swing voters may see things differently. So here's my question. Actually, make it questions. Pretend the 2020 general election is today. Note that I'm not asking which candidate you'd most like to see as the Democratic nominee -- I'm asking what you'd do if the nominations below were a done deal. - The GOP nominee is Trump. The Democratic nominee is Warren. There's a third party nominee you find inoffensive but who certainly will not win. Would you vote Trump, Warren, third party, or stay home?
- The GOP nominee is Trump. The Democratic nominee is Biden. There's a third party nominee you find inoffensive but who certainly will not win. Would you vote Trump, Biden, third party, or stay home?
- The GOP nominee is Trump. The Democratic nominee is Buttigieg. There's a third party nominee you find inoffensive but who certainly will not win. Would you vote Trump, Buttigieg, third party, or stay home?
- The GOP nominee is Trump. The Democratic nominee is Harris. There's a third party nominee you find inoffensive but who certainly will not win. Would you vote Trump, Harris, third party, or stay home?
- The GOP nominee is Trump. The Democratic nominee is Sanders. There's a third party nominee you find inoffensive but who certainly will not win. Would you vote Trump, Sanders, third party, or stay home?
Now me, I'm going for the Democrat regardless in 2020 (though I'm hoping that doesn't mean voting for Sanders). I'm betting markesq is there as well, and Angie . I rather suspect that most of the board won't go Trump, but I'm curious about whether you'd go third party or stay home, and whether the choice of nominee would make a difference.
I know in 2016, the answer for many of the swing voters here was to vote third party. I'm curious whether two and a half years of Trump have changed that.
Here's a further question, if you are willing: Pretend that your vote decides the election: if you vote third party, the election will definitely go to Trump. If you are inclined to go third party, does that change your calculation?
I'm also curious about whether any registered Republicans would vote Weld (or some other candidate, if he or she threw a hat in the ring) over Trump in the GOP primary, were it held today.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Jun 19, 2019 14:52:59 GMT -5
I think I'd vote for Biden. I might vote for Buttigieg or Harris. I won't vote for Warren or Sanders. I also won't vote for Trump. I'll vote third party if I actually prefer the third party candidate over whomever is the Dem nominee (again, I won't vote for Trump).
I don't think it's my responsibility--as a voter--to make sure that one candidate or another loses. It's my responsibility to vote for the candidate I prefer, end of story.* Repubs and Dems can bitch and moan all they like about this or that third party candidate costing their candidate a given election, but it's just noise imo. The two major parties don't have a right to any votes; their candidates--like all candidates--are supposed to earn those votes. The fact that a good portion of the voting populace votes party line--and are, frankly, shallow thinkers at best--is not my problem.
* Or to not vote for any of the candidates, if I think they are all awful; to purposefully not vote--to abstain--is as valid a choice for a citizen as it is for a member of Congress.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 15:11:36 GMT -5
I think I'd vote for Biden. I might vote for Buttigieg or Harris. I won't vote for Warren or Sanders. I also won't vote for Trump. I'll vote third party if I actually prefer the third party candidate over whomever is the Dem nominee (again, I won't vote for Trump). I don't think it's my responsibility--as a voter--to make sure that one candidate or another loses. It's my responsibility to vote for the candidate I prefer, end of story.* Repubs and Dems can bitch and moan all they like about this or that third party candidate costing their candidate a given election, but it's just noise imo. The two major parties don't have a right to any votes; their candidates--like all candidates--are supposed to earn those votes. The fact that a good portion of the voting populace votes party line--and are, frankly, shallow thinkers at best--is not my problem. * Or to not vote for any of the candidates, if I think they are all awful; to purposefully not vote--to abstain--is as valid a choice for a citizen as it is for a member of Congress. Your response is EXACTLY what I've been arguing is the likely response from the bulk of swing/third party voters, right down to the candidates you'd back or wouldn't back. ETA My feeling that this would be the case is part of what drives me to prefer those three candidates, and to have actually thrown some money at Biden. (I will likely throw more money around before the primary is through; it's early days.) It helps, of course, that I think all three of these candidates would make a decent president. Thank you for your response. Anyone else want to venture an answer? FYI, this, from me, is going to be a (rare!) judgment-free thread. I shall not lecture you on your choices here -- I genuinely want to hear if my own guts about this election are in sync with the swing voters I know. (I've been asking real life friends and relatives as well -- both independents and NeverTrump Republicans. I truly think the hardcore party people really do not grok where swing voters are coming from -- and I think it's going to matter.)
|
|
|
Post by Optimus on Jun 19, 2019 18:59:29 GMT -5
Definitely would never vote Trump and, as given the current state of the party, I can't see myself ever voting Republican, at least not for the next decade or so. There would have to be a massive shift in the state of the party and the content of their platform for me to even entertain the idea.
We already know I'd vote for Buttigieg. I would begrudgingly vote for Biden if he were the Dem nominee. I don't think he'd be a good President, but I don't think he'd be terrible either. He'd likely just kind of be there, taking up milquetoast space, accomplishing next to nothing. But, milquetoast nothing is still better to me than Trump.
I'd have to give serious thought to voting for Bernie if he were the nominee, but if I felt he had a close to decent chance to beat Trump, I'd consider voting for him. There's nothing about Harris that excites me and her absolute lack of charisma doesn't motivate me to want to vote for her. Again, like with Sanders, if she were the nominee and I thought the race might be close and/or that she had a chance to beat Trump, I'd give it some thought. But, so far, she's done nothing to motivate me to like her as a candidate. She came off to me as a "flash in the pan" and her recent poll numbers are starting to reflect that. I actually don't see her surviving the primaries (or even making it that far), but I could be wrong.
I used to like Warren, but I've lost pretty much all respect for her. She's demonstrated that she will mindlessly regurgitate whatever moronic talking points are currently viral with SJWs, and/or embarrassingly pretend to be whatever she thinks "real people" are like (who can forget her ripping off Beto with her cringey "I'm gonna get me a beer" Twitter video), and that comes off to me as her being the type of candidate who will do whatever it takes for people to temporarily like her. That's not any different than all politicians, but she seems to no longer have any ideas of her own, and is the political equivalent of one of those dolls that will spout random shit whenever you pull the string in its back. If she were the nominee, I probably just wouldn't vote at all.
Same with Beto. I liked him at first, but the more he spoke, the faker he seemed. Not a lot going on in that empty head of his. I think he'd have no chance of beating Trump and I would likely not vote.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 19:12:21 GMT -5
Beto went from giving astonishingly good answers to questions in town halls (his answer on the football players was great) to live-streaming his dental appointments. Accordingly, I want from being excited about him to saying "next." I don't think he's stupid, and I do think he has charisma (when he isn't being weird), but he is apparently flaky, and we definitely don't need flaky. In any case, I don't think he has a prayer of being the nominee. I included the candidates who most frequently poll in the top five, for purposes of this question. www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html I suppose it's possibly someone down the list could break through and catch fire, but I doubt it. ETA Thank you for responding, btw. I actually had expected both Buttigieg and Harris to do better in the polls than they have so far vis a vis Warren. There's still time, of course. I think Warren is likely benefiting from some fall off in Sanders' support among progressives. Buttigieg has picked up some fall off from Beto, I think, but it looks to me like the establishment Dems are still currently inclined to rally around Biden for the most part.
|
|
|
Post by mikey on Jun 19, 2019 21:43:31 GMT -5
I know you didn't ask me, but seeing as how I am a US citizen, and can legally vote, I seriously doubt I'd vote for any Democrat.
Not because of any particular candidate, but because the DNC platform. I would no more become a member of the DNC than I would become a member of the KKK. I feel almost the same way towards the RNC.
So to answer your question,If Bernie was third party, I'd vote Bernie. Other than that I'm likely to stay home.
Although I would not vote for Trump, 4 more years of this entertainment would not hurt my feelings,
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 22:28:06 GMT -5
Thank you for your response, Mikey.
And actually, I'm quite interested to hear you're likely to stay home rather than vote Trump. And also interested that you'd vote Sanders over Trump. Why? (If you want to tell us.) I admit you've surprised me, and it's a perspective I'm sincerely interested in hearing.
In all sincerity, I started this thread as a pure information-gathering enterprise to see where non-party diehards are. If you're not "GOP no matter what," that certainly includes you.
ETA:
A further question, if you choose to answer it: What is the appeal of Sanders for you versus the Democratic platform? Why does Sanders appeal to you when you dislike the platform?
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Jun 20, 2019 7:38:05 GMT -5
I would begrudgingly vote for Biden if he were the Dem nominee. I don't think he'd be a good President, but I don't think he'd be terrible either. He'd likely just kind of be there, taking up milquetoast space, accomplishing next to nothing. But, milquetoast nothing is still better to me than Trump. I couldn't have put it any better--re me willing to vote Biden--than that last line. It would be easy to vote for Biden, simply because I know what I would get...and what I would get is hardly something bold, hardly something revolutionary. Voting for Biden would be very much taking a big, deep breath, then slowly exhaling. In contrast, voting for some of the other Dem candidates would be like taking that breath, then holding it. Of course, Biden still suffers from foot-in-mouth disease, but not to a fatal degree (unlike Trump).
|
|
|
Post by mikey on Jun 20, 2019 13:28:28 GMT -5
Thank you for your response, Mikey. And actually, I'm quite interested to hear you're likely to stay home rather than vote Trump. And also interested that you'd vote Sanders over Trump. Why? (If you want to tell us.) I admit you've surprised me, and it's a perspective I'm sincerely interested in hearing. In all sincerity, I started this thread as a pure information-gathering enterprise to see where non-party diehards are. If you're not "GOP no matter what," that certainly includes you. ETA: A further question, if you choose to answer it: What is the appeal of Sanders for you versus the Democratic platform? Why does Sanders appeal to you when you dislike the platform? Sorry for taking so long to get back to you Cass, but my first attempt at a response turned out to be a little too ranty. As far as Sanders goes, he seems to me as the least status quo candidate out of the whole Dem field. As far as his socialism thing, I don't even know what people mean by "socialism" anymore. In my view, the US is already a socialist country, at least for corporations ( think "too big to fail", "subsidies", "limited liability", and such )and government employees. I think we should have socialism for everybody, or socialism for nobody. But I know I'm a minority in these matters and my pie-in-the-sky equality dream is a non starter. So go Bernie, tip over that apple cart.
Just to reiterate, I'll most likely stay home on voting day.
|
|
|
Post by haggis on Jun 20, 2019 19:47:37 GMT -5
I don't think it's my responsibility--as a voter--to make sure that one candidate or another loses. It's my responsibility to vote for the candidate I prefer, end of story.* Repubs and Dems can bitch and moan all they like about this or that third party candidate costing their candidate a given election, but it's just noise imo. The two major parties don't have a right to any votes; their candidates--like all candidates--are supposed to earn those votes. The fact that a good portion of the voting populace votes party line--and are, frankly, shallow thinkers at best--is not my problem. * Or to not vote for any of the candidates, if I think they are all awful; to purposefully not vote--to abstain--is as valid a choice for a citizen as it is for a member of Congress. This has always been the way I felt, going back to my second presidential election. I've voted three times for a third party, and one time chose not to vote because of suckage on all sides. However, in 2016 I didn't dare not vote because of that the chance that Trump might get elected so I held my nose and pushed the Hillary button. I lost. And so did the rest of us. Anyhow... I pretty much agree with Opty except for the whole Mayor Pete thing. I like him a lot. I'm impressed with his intelligence, and enjoyed the hell out of hearing him speak in fluent French and Italian, all the time knowing Trump can't even speak English. I also like the fact he didn't have bone spurs. But I wish he were Senator Pete, or Governor Pete before he ascended to President Pete. Plus he's younger than my kids. He's hella bright though, and if he were the nominee, he'd get my vote. Yes I know. That was ageist. Get over it. I also like Warren, though I worry about her ability to be truthful. And her ability to be genuine. And her age. She ain't no puppy. I know. I did it again. Watch me do it twice more. Sleepy Joe and Bernie are even older. There are other reasons I'd prefer not to have either of those guys in office, but that's a major one right there. Remember the Gipper and his Alzheimers? Joe's 76 and Bernie's 77. They'll both be 80 or older at the end of their first term, assuming they live through it. Still, if they had quality VP candidates (and this goes for Warren too--she's 69) it would make it possible for me to vote for either of them should they get the nomination. I'm a septuagenarian too. I get to say all of that. You don't. As for my preference? I really like Harris, though there's much more to learn about her and the other candidates for that matter. Booker has possibilities and both of the western Governors do too, though I doubt either one will be a factor. So bottom line... Many people are saying, "'I will never in hell press a button for Donald Trump,' I'll tell you that". I'm one of them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 21:02:56 GMT -5
Thank you for responding, Haggis.
I agree wholeheartedly with your point about the older candidates especially picking solid VPs who I could picture stepping right in if need be. Often a VP choice is either a shrug or a negative, but the higher the chance they might have to pick up the ball, the more I care. Also, it would set a good person up nicely for 2024. (I think it's pretty unlikely either Biden or Bernie will be running in 2024, but what do I know. RBG does a mean plank at 84.)
|
|
|
Post by michaelw on Jun 20, 2019 21:13:17 GMT -5
- The GOP nominee is Trump. The Democratic nominee is Sanders. There's a third party nominee you find inoffensive but who certainly will not win. Would you vote Trump, Warren, third party, or stay home?
Damn. I have to choose between Trump, Warren, and third party, even when Sanders is actually the nominee. (Just kidding, I know what you meant. ) In any case, I certainly prefer any of the Dems over Trump. But I don't think I would drag myself over broken glass to vote for any of them. My home state always votes Dem, so I think I'd just be fooling myself into a certain degree of self-importance. In the hypothetical scenario where one votes decides everything, sure. I'll go for the Dem. But in reality, we all know how likely that is.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 21:22:53 GMT -5
Ha, I got lazy with my cut and paste!
Thank you for your response. I also live in a state that will inevitably go blue, but I am incapable of not voting. I vote in every piddling election, even if I have to wait in line 3 hours or get an absentee ballot. It's like a disease with me. I really should move to a swing state.
ETA:
I gave the hypothetical, not because it's a likely scenario, but because I was curious how much third party voters were counting on their vote not particularly mattering.
For my part, in elections where I've gone third party, it's been when I felt like I could at least live with the major party options if it came down to it. Feeling as I do about Trump, that was not an option for me in the 2016 presidential race, nor is it in 2020. And yes, that's even though I live in a blue state and it doesn't matter a damn. Like I said, it's a disease with me.
|
|
|
Post by haggis on Jun 20, 2019 22:00:33 GMT -5
Thank you for responding, Haggis. I agree wholeheartedly with your point about the older candidates especially picking solid VPs who I could picture stepping right in if need be. Often a VP choice is either a shrug or a negative, but the higher the chance they might have to pick up the ball, the more I care. Also, it would set a good person up nicely for 2024. (I think it's pretty unlikely either Biden or Bernie will be running in 2024, but what do I know. RBG does a mean plank at 84.) Damn her. Why won't she run?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 22:01:56 GMT -5
Goddamn it, Haggis, she's 84 and you want her doing marathons? Aren't the planks enough?
|
|