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Post by robeiae on Jun 6, 2017 9:05:50 GMT -5
Harvard Rescinds Acceptances for At Least Ten Students for Obscene MemesThat seems pretty bad to me. At first blush, I can't say I fault Harvard at all; I wouldn't want people who would do this working with me or associating with me, either. But then, there is a little more here: If I'm following here, they were meme-sharing, partly to see what was out there. Some people wanted to see more explicit stuff, so they formed a more private group to share those memes. Now, sharing memes found on the internet doesn't necessarily mean endorsing the views of the same and I think there is also a legitimate "study" angle in all of this, i.e. knowing what's out there. There's also a simple humor angle: really dark, really "inappropriate" humor can be really funny in my opinion, though the audience certainly matters. Regardless, I certainly don't want to say Harvard was necessarily wrong here; I have to think it's people looked into this thoroughly. That said, a quote from one of the students in these meme groups--whose admission status has not changed--caught my attention: I don't think I agree. There is no topic that should not be joked about, imo. There are certainly times and places where this is true, but it's not true across the board. What say you?
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Post by Amadan on Jun 6, 2017 9:32:20 GMT -5
So, dark humor, grisly humor, wildly, horribly offensive humor, is a thing. I mean, I am not into dead baby jokes or genocide jokes or starving Somalian jokes or rape jokes, but I have zero empathy for SJWs flipping their shit about how such things should be off-limits forever and ever and comedians who deal in such humor should be consigned to the outer darkness, because fuck them. As a teenager the age of these kids, yeah, I certainly participated in my share of "edgy" joking about shit that would embarrass me now. So the idea that they're a bunch of mentally damaged deviants who would endanger the safety of their fellow students is ridiculous. That said - what they did is stupid as fuck. They used Harvard's own social media to share these jokes, and somehow got into Harvard without any awareness of what the SJ environment at an Ivy university is like nowadays. The consequences should have been predictable to anyone smart enough to get into Harvard... This is a harsh lesson that kids probably need to be taught earlier - "Learn when to keep your thoughts to yourself because the enemy is listening." (I don't know why I am swearing so much. Probably because I just bombed out of a poker tournament and I'm on tilt. )
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 10:12:40 GMT -5
I don't remotely fault Harvard for this. Indeed, I think they made the right decision.
As we've discussed here a thousand times, I'm 100% pro-free speech, including ugly, stupid speech, right up until the point the Supreme Court wisely set. If we were talking about legal consequences for speech like this, I'd be screaming bloody murder.
But we aren't. We're talking about admission to an elite university -- a supreme privilege, whether you are a rich kid paying for it or a poor kid going on scholarship. Each of these ten candidates, whatever their qualifications, beat out literally hundreds of other kids with similar qualifications. Harvard turns down talented kids with perfect grades and test scores, and terrific extracurricular activities. So -- now ten spots open up for those kids. These kids showed themselves as either being too stupid for Harvard (for pete's sake -- it's not just the internet, it's an actual Harvard affiliated site) or being too immature or as having shitty characters -- or quite possibly all of the above. There are better candidates to fill their slots.
Similarly, I'm cool with people getting fired for shit like this.
Legal consequences are one thing. Private consequences? Pfft. You do shit like this, and you open yourself up to that. Kids smart enough to get into Harvard should be smart enough to see that.
No pity here, at all. Team Harvard. And Team Kids Who Will Now Take Those Ten Slots.
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 6, 2017 11:48:51 GMT -5
When my kids were applying to college, we told them about stuff like this. Not that my kids every would do anything like this, but we told them to be careful not to comment on something from someone else. In college, you are guilty until proven innocent, and you get no chance to do so.
If these kids had acceptance letters and they did something like this, there's really no recourse. If they got as far as signing a contract and giving Harvard $, they might be able to sue, as the college shouldn't be able to in essence expel them without a hearing depending on their handbook.
From what I read, the offensive memes were not on the official Harvard group, but rather a sub group, but if you were on the official one, you had the chance to be invited, so anyone monitoring it would have been able to find it too. My guess is some kid on the official one was offended and sent Harvard a message.
I don't think I can blame Harvard, but that would also depend on what the memes were. Sometimes a warning might be nice.
However, I also can't say I have no sympathy for the students who had their acceptance revoked. It's a hard blow for what they probably thought of as private behavior.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 7, 2017 8:10:40 GMT -5
That said - what they did is stupid as fuck. They used Harvard's own social media to share these jokes, and somehow got into Harvard without any awareness of what the SJ environment at an Ivy university is like nowadays. The consequences should have been predictable to anyone smart enough to get into Harvard... This is a harsh lesson that kids probably need to be taught earlier - "Learn when to keep your thoughts to yourself because the enemy is listening." (I don't know why I am swearing so much. Probably because I just bombed out of a poker tournament and I'm on tilt. ) Yeah, my initial version of the thread start noted this: that doing this via social media directly linked to Harvard was, in and of itself, stupid. And grossly so. I opted not to go there, because I was more interested in the issue of how dark humor is received. I don't remotely fault Harvard for this. Indeed, I think they made the right decision. As we've discussed here a thousand times, I'm 100% pro-free speech, including ugly, stupid speech, right up until the point the Supreme Court wisely set. If we were talking about legal consequences for speech like this, I'd be screaming bloody murder. But we aren't. We're talking about admission to an elite university -- a supreme privilege, whether you are a rich kid paying for it or a poor kid going on scholarship. Each of these ten candidates, whatever their qualifications, beat out literally hundreds of other kids with similar qualifications. Harvard turns down talented kids with perfect grades and test scores, and terrific extracurricular activities. So -- now ten spots open up for those kids. These kids showed themselves as either being too stupid for Harvard (for pete's sake -- it's not just the internet, it's an actual Harvard affiliated site) or being too immature or as having shitty characters -- or quite possibly all of the above. There are better candidates to fill their slots. Similarly, I'm cool with people getting fired for shit like this. Legal consequences are one thing. Private consequences? Pfft. You do shit like this, and you open yourself up to that. Kids smart enough to get into Harvard should be smart enough to see that. No pity here, at all. Team Harvard. And Team Kids Who Will Now Take Those Ten Slots. Well, I have some pity. I can't fault Harvard for the decision, because image matters, always. But I spent some time yesterday talking to my 11th grade son and one of his buddies about this story. They're both in a drama magnet and they're both--along with some of their friends--funny as hell and irreverent as hell. But they're also really good kids who worry about their grades, who protect and help their friends, and so on. In their little group, they make jokes about things like the Holocaust, about death, about various groups (most of whom are represented in their group; seriously, the arts-intensive high school they attend is one of the most diverse schools you might find anywhere, from the standpoint of socio-economics, race, sexual orientation, and national origins). And they noted to me something that I already know: finding some of this dark humor funny does not mean one agrees with it. Indeed, oftentimes what makes it funny is the recognition that some people actually see the world through these lenses (of hate, bigotry, and so on). Other times what makes it funny is just the fact that it is clever, even though the subject matter is not something given to comedy. We talked about SNL, too. They both used to watch it and have seen many of the old shows. Both agreed that currently, SNL kinds sucks because it's no longer taking chances with its skits and so is failing to really be original. For them, the political stuff has simply gotten old (both despise Trump and company, btw, as do pretty much every one of their friends). It seems to me that it's getting progressively more difficult to be irreverent without serious pushback.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 8:34:42 GMT -5
Let's say they didn't really mean that hanging Mexican children would make good pinatas.
Making jokes like that with a small group of known friends who know you and know you're kidding -- that's one thing.
Making them on the internet? Too dumb to live, sorry. At this point, teens (especially those smart enough to get into Harvard) know that nothing is private on the internet. Moreover, this online dark group had an affiliation with Harvard and you certainly wouldn't know all of the people included in the group. Dumb.
Finally, taking the dumbness aside, how are we supposed to know which of the kids were just being silly and which really just don't give a shit about Mexican kids?
Not going to Harvard will not damn these kids to failure and homelessness. Plenty of other schools will take them. They'll be fine. I just can't feel bad for them. If you want entree to a rarified world, you'd better expect to live up to the standards they ask. Speaking as someone who went to a fancy-pancy school and embarked on a fancy-pancy career, you can bet I reined in some of my own more irreverent impulses and behavior when I wasn't around those those I knew quite well. I still do, when it comes to anything that might reflect on my work life. You can bet if I were planning to try for a judgeship or a political career, I wouldn't be nearly as free-wheeling here, even anonymously. (As it stands, I'm not planning to try for anything I. future where anything I've done or said here or elsewhere could really bite me. I still do restrain myself from sexting, etc.)
I love dark humor. But this is no cause for hand-wringing.
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Post by Amadan on Jun 7, 2017 8:57:08 GMT -5
You can bet if I were planning to try for a judgeship or a political career, I wouldn't be nearly as free-wheeling here, even anonymously. starts keeping an archive of all of Cass's posts in case she is ever nominated for AG...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 9:05:14 GMT -5
You can bet if I were planning to try for a judgeship or a political career, I wouldn't be nearly as free-wheeling here, even anonymously. starts keeping an archive of all of Cass's posts in case she is ever nominated for AG...To be honest, I still think I'd be fine. Trump won't be appointing me for anything soon, since I've been pretty outspoken about him -- and that's fine with me. But otherwise, I doubt anything I've said would be a serious barrier for me. I think you'd have to take my jokes way out of context to paint me as a racist or extremist. And my positions on issues are my positions on issues, which I've taken publicly in Real Life.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 7, 2017 9:09:07 GMT -5
She can't be any worse than Jeff Sessions.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 9:22:30 GMT -5
She can't be any worse than Jeff Sessions. Pfft. Hold my covfefe.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 7, 2017 9:26:20 GMT -5
I love dark humor. But this is no cause for hand-wringing. I'm not "hand-wringing." I pretty clearly said that I can't fault Harvard for their actions, no? But I thought this story might make a good jumping off point for a discussion about dark humor. And yeah, I do have some potential pity--I don't know the details--for the kids involved, because I get the irreverent stuff. Obviously, they made a bone-headed choice here, but too dumb too live? They did get in to Harvard. Standards haven't dropped that much, have they?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 9:36:55 GMT -5
I do irreverent, too. Time, place, manner, context all matter, as do the consequences. If these kids were making darkly ironic, intelligent observations on a political situation, I'd be more likely to defend them. If they were just being silly among old friends at a party, I'd be more likely to defend them. If the consequences were a criminal penalty, I'd absolutely be defending them. Here, they were cracking dumb jokes about things like the holocaust on a site connected to Harvard. Consequence: they don't get to go to one very elite university that accepts only 6% of a very impressive, highly-qualified group of applicants. (Did I say earlier that they were each chosen over hundreds of similar applicants? Make that thousands.) Yeah, not so sad. I don't think this is the death knell of irreverent humor. I'd be crying more if it were. Eta: Harvard has a satirical magazine. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Harvard_Lampoon. So even it isn't completely devoid of dark humor. However, none of the sample jokes from these kids I've seen so far seemed to me nearly clever enough to pass muster. eta: Maybe this is in my head, but I get the sense at least part the point of them doing the "horny bourgeois Harvard kids" site to begin with was to piss all over the Harvard thing and to show they were entirely too cool to think it was a big deal. Well, now maybe those ten slots sill go to kids who will value them more. Somewhere out there are ten waitlisted kids with awesome grades and SATs who dreamt of Harvard and have prayed night and day enough accepted kids would turn down spots so they could get in. And now they will. Three cheers for them.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 7, 2017 10:52:28 GMT -5
If these kids were making darkly ironic, intelligent observations on a political situation, I'd be more likely to defend them. If they were just being silly among old friends at a party, I'd be more likely to defend them. If the consequences were a criminal penalty, I'd absolutely be defending them. Here, they were cracking dumb jokes on a site connected to Harvard. I don't know--as a matter of fact--that you're correct in this regard. I hope you are--as I said, I assume Harvard looked into the specifics--but I don't know that you are, across the board at any rate. Regardless, this isn't indicative of a death knell at all, imo. But I think it reflects a larger "evolution" in this regard (and people can argue whether it's good or bad). Again, ultimately foolish on the part of these kids. They put Harvard in something of box here, forced its hand more or less. Harvard has to protect itself, its reputation. You cite Harvard Lampoon. I'm familiar with it. Indeed, their Bored of the Rings is one of my all time favs. But I have to say, I don't know if what is in that book would pass muster today, if it would actually get published. Beyond that, I think the risk associated with irreverent humor, dark humor, what have you has increased exponentially across the last several decades, since the internet never forgets and someone is always watching. I don't know that this a good thing.
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Post by celawson on Jun 7, 2017 10:53:18 GMT -5
I love dark humor. But this is no cause for hand-wringing. I'm not "hand-wringing." I pretty clearly said that I can't fault Harvard for their actions, no? But I thought this story might make a good jumping off point for a discussion about dark humor. And yeah, I do have some potential pity--I don't know the details--for the kids involved, because I get the irreverent stuff. Obviously, they made a bone-headed choice here, but too dumb too live? They did get in to Harvard. Standards haven't dropped that much, have they? Bolding mine. IMO, the problem is not that the standards have dropped that much, it's that they have climbed that much. Kids nowadays, in order to get into a super-elite school like Harvard, have to live a skewed life. They really don't have time for the normal things teens do to develop themselves as people, to learn how to make their own decisions (helicopter parents, anyone?), to have normal social interactions (too much internet!), to work a real job (that teaches you appropriate public behavior pretty quickly), heck, they don't even have time to sit around and daydream and figure out who they are. And so kids are being turned out who can score astonishingly high on their SATs and get a 4.3 GPA, but who can't make intelligent real world decisions. My cousin graduated from USC a few decades ago and has a very strong business network of fraternity brothers. They have repeatedly complained to him that hiring kids out of college today is very frustrating. The highest quality applicants on paper have no interpersonal skills or common sense. I truly think the above fiasco is a reflection of this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 11:02:50 GMT -5
I actually think this is a problem with kids with much lower academic credentials, as well. Lots of kids spend too much time on the internet, gaming, tv, etc. And it is a real problem, wherever it occurs. Parents need to work on their kids learning common sense as well as attaining academic qualifications.
That said, I can assure you that not all ivy kids are lacking in common sense and interpersonal skills, and some of them have held down jobs. This ivy kid had jobs from age 16 up (and babysitting from 12 up), which I proudly discussed on my applications. I am far from the only one. In fact, the schools want more than a pure academic grind.
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