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Post by robeiae on Aug 17, 2017 15:48:58 GMT -5
So, I'm seeing a lot of talk on social media--and in the mainstream media--about monuments. Much of it is specific to Confederate monuments, to be sure, but there is some talk about other ones, usually as some sort of counter to arguments about the former ones.
What I'm talking about here are monuments--statues, really--of specific historical people, like the obvious example of Robert E. Lee.
So, here's a question: what is a sound and justifiable basis for having a monument removed? For instance, should all monuments of Confederate leaders be removed, on the simple basis that they fought on the pro-slavery side in the Civil War?
I think that's both reasonable and justifiable, myself. And that's because many (most) of these statues were erected with an eye towards the local communities. But that was then this is now. Communities have changed, populations have adjusted, to an extent that keeping such statues in place serves no real purpose and are far more likely to be viewed negatively by a larger swath of the community.
But what about statues of other non-confederate personages who can be fairly criticized for similar points of view and/or actual actions? For instance, there's a Sherman Monument in DC. And he was not only a slave-owner, but his wartime actions bordered on the criminal. Or there are the slave-owning founders like Washington and Jefferson, who have many statues in many places. Then there are people like Andy Jackson and even FDR. Then there's the Lenin statue in Seattle (to be fair, this is privately owned and on private property).
So, is it time for a purge? How far should it go?
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Post by mikey on Aug 17, 2017 16:15:09 GMT -5
Personally, I think they should leave all of them alone. These are monuments of what were at one time prominent people. Part of the US history like it or not. Granted the Confederate ones ended up on the wrong side of history, but as Rob said, Sherman.
The whole Andy Jackson and George Custer come into play. And then there was the little Nagasaki and Hiroshima thing to think about. Hashtag can of worms.
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Post by mikey on Aug 17, 2017 16:32:40 GMT -5
Another thing, I wouldn't be opposed to collecting all the civil war monuments and displaying them in a (some?) dedicated theme park. Those who don't want to see the display, don't go.
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Post by michaelw on Aug 17, 2017 17:01:19 GMT -5
Then there's the Lenin statue in Seattle (to be fair, this is privately owned and on private property). So, is it time for a purge? How far should it go? The Lenin statue in Seattle is an interesting case, because while it's on private property, it does feel very much like it's in a public space. I didn't know it existed until I just happened to bump into it, walking down the street a couple of years ago. You really can't miss it. As far what else to take down, I read that Baltimore just removed their statue of Roger Taney. And there's another one in Annapolis that's still there but will likely be removed, as well. I went to school in Annapolis and remember that statue very well. We read the Dred Scott decision during senior year, so one could have done that and then have walked only a few blocks down to a monument celebrating the man who wrote it. Pretty crazy, I always thought. I wouldn't be sad to see it go, that's for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 21:26:45 GMT -5
Confederate statues should come down to the extent they are on public streets, on the same footing as statues of heroes. They may have been heroic in battle, but the fact is, they fought against the United States. As I said in another thread, it would be appropriate to display them in museums. They are part of history -- and one shouldn't forget history.
Moreover, they are a rallying symbol for white nationalist assholes. We don't need that.
As far as the other categories -- well, as a general thing, we shouldn't hero-worship people who are notorious for doing something dreadful. And slave-owning and racism are dreadful. But to some extent, people of the past were products of their time. We certainly shouldn't celebrate Washington and Jefferson for owning slaves -- and IMO it's important not to forget that they did. But that isn't what we celebrate when we celebrate them. I think we can celebrate them for founding our country while recognizing and deploring that dark chapter in their books.
Statues on private property are the business of the property owner, IMO. If the Lenin statue is on private property, whatever. But our public streets and public squares -- I don't think we need statues of traitors, dictators, criminals, etc. there.
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Post by Don on Aug 17, 2017 22:53:54 GMT -5
ISIS and the Ministry of Truth are bestest buds. Move them to a dedicated museum space or plaque them appropriately in situ, but they should be seen as an object lesson on the veneration of evil.
And I'd do the same with presidents that suspended habeus corpus, interred Japanese-Americans, and dropped nukes... among others.
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Post by Don on Aug 17, 2017 22:56:47 GMT -5
I like the idea of a theme park. Sell people rotten vegetables by the bushel and retire the national debt. 😁
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Post by poetinahat on Aug 18, 2017 0:24:44 GMT -5
What about Che Guevara t-shirts? The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle features Sid Vicious wearing a swastika t-shirt. And, well, watch the scene where he sings, "My Way". I can't square with that. ETA: Bottom line: I'm torn. I get that practically everyone's tainted in today's context, and every case may be different. What I really don't get is the President making such a fuss over statues, when he clearly doesn't give a rat's ass about the majority of living Americans.
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Post by Don on Aug 18, 2017 8:36:14 GMT -5
Richard Ebeling summed it up nicely for me.
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Post by Don on Aug 18, 2017 8:52:34 GMT -5
What about Che Guevara t-shirts? The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle features Sid Vicious wearing a swastika t-shirt. And, well, watch the scene where he sings, "My Way". I can't square with that. ETA: Bottom line: I'm torn. I get that practically everyone's tainted in today's context, and every case may be different. What I really don't get is the President making such a fuss over statues, when he clearly doesn't give a rat's ass about the majority of living Americans. I view Stalin, Lenin, Marx, Che and Mao t-shirts as excellent indicators of the overall intelligence, grasp of history, and economic acumen of the wearer. Where's the outrage over the support for these mass murderers and the psychotic who inspired them, and continues to inspire others today in the face of the failures of socialist governments around the world? How are these mass murderers, many with much higher body counts than Hitler, viewed as somehow different from him? Does no one else see the irony in anti-fa wearing Che-shirts?
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Post by Amadan on Aug 18, 2017 11:59:24 GMT -5
Does no one else see the irony in anti-fa wearing Che-shirts? I do. But on the memorials issue - I think taking down or moving Confederate statues is sensible, since they're basically commemorating the defeated leaders of a rebellion, and maybe more importantly, they were erected in the first place as an explicit "Fuck you" to blacks and Northerners by people still wishing the South had won. I mean, Germans and Japanese can commemorate their war dead and give respect to leaders who fought honorably for a dishonorable cause, but they don't put statues of Rommel or Yamamoto up in town squares. But other statues? FDR, Washington, Jefferson? Yes, they were all flawed individuals. At what point do you just say no historical statues? Name a single American President who didn't do something Don doesn't like. Name a single historical figure who didn't hold some view that would be considered politically incorrect today.
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Post by Don on Aug 18, 2017 14:31:51 GMT -5
That's kinda the point. If every statue that someone doesn't like is consigned to the trash heap, what's left of history? I say plaque 'em all, in situ, and be honest about both the supposed saints and sinners.
We're currently thirty miles from Heart Mountain, so perhaps I'm overly sentimental.
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Post by Christine on Aug 18, 2017 17:42:27 GMT -5
That's kinda the point. If every statue that someone doesn't like is consigned to the trash heap, what's left of history?
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Post by robeiae on Aug 21, 2017 8:18:46 GMT -5
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Post by robeiae on Aug 23, 2017 7:00:07 GMT -5
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