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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 17:05:01 GMT -5
But I'll answer your question, c.e., (which I'm treating as a hypothetical because I don't agree with your characterization of either Trump's or Obama's policies):
Character matters. A character as fundamentally flawed and terrible as Trump's is does not belong in the oval office, ever.
Ditto on Roy Moore.
No one is perfect. Most politicians have flaws, some of them big ones. But there is a bridge too far, and Trump pretty much crossed all of them. No. No. No. Never Trump. I can hold my nose to an extent -- I generally do -- but I would not vote for him or the likes of him if he claimed to espouse every policy I hold dear. Never.
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Post by Optimus on Dec 18, 2017 17:31:53 GMT -5
If I weren't here, many discussions on this board would be an echo chamber regarding Trump (except for Rob who is pretty damned objective). It's not a good use of my time to just join in a piling on. I will contribute when there's actually something to offer that's a different or contrary perspective. Despite Amadan's arguably histrionic "bullshit" exclamation on this one, I wanted to say that, while I'm not sure that it's true that this place would become an echo chamber if you weren't here, I will admit the danger always exists, especially given how few active posters this board has. So, voices like yours are important to this board. I don't always or even often agree with you celawson, and I'll be honest in saying that I find your intransigence on some topics to be quite frustrating at times, but if we're going to truly strive for diversity of thought on this board, then we need viewpoints like yours here. And, kudos to you that you're generally not gruff, angry, and abusive/insulting when you give your opinions and debate with people here. I've never known you to be a mean, troll poster even when it does look like you're getting a bit piled on. So, yeah, I guess my post is just a long way of reiterating Evelyn Beatrice Hall's famous words, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
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Post by Amadan on Dec 18, 2017 17:50:01 GMT -5
Despite Amadan's arguably histrionic "bullshit" exclamation on this one But I didn't even use an exclamation point! I'll defend celaw's right to speak as well and I am all for diversity of opinions (I was not kidding when I said I didn't really want to get rid of Nighttimer). But I'm not apologizing for calling bullshit when I see it.
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Post by Optimus on Dec 18, 2017 17:56:10 GMT -5
We can always just start posting this when we feel someone's reached "peak bullshit."
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Post by celawson on Dec 18, 2017 18:42:02 GMT -5
Opty, I really do appreciate that post. Thank you. And I find your posts and discussions on neuroscience and psychology and religion etc. fascinating and intelligent and thoughtful.
One of the things I don't understand is why political arguments have to get personal. Especially in a place like this which was created so the discussions would be on a more civil and thoughtful level. Some people are accused of copying and pasting, and others are accused of being on their "high horse", and the ease with which some people reach animosity towards others who are trying to have a good faith argument really surprises me.
Cassandra, I agree with you that a man like Trump shouldn't be POTUS. I actually thought he would learn on the job how to be more presidential. And after a good, reasoned, and well-delivered speech (like the one he gave on election night) I start to think maybe just maybe he's getting there. And then he goes and does something so immature and stupid that I cringe and realize he's not going to change. But he was elected POTUS and he is the POTUS, and no amount of my handwringing is going to change that. And he is enacting policies I agree with. So I'm just going to ride this out and be glad about what I see as good policy decisions. The economy is doing well, my retirement fund is growing nicely, I'm happy about increased U.S. strength against ISIS and terrorism, I'm glad we're taking a good look at immigration, I do believe Obamacare is unsustainable and hope we can come to a better solution for health care, I'm glad we're acting like a true ally to Israel, I like the decrease in unnecessary and expensive over-regulation such as from the EPA, and I like the idea of a strong military. That's just to name a few things.
I've been thinking over the last few days about why some people can get so nasty during Trump arguments. And I'm not any closer to an answer, because everyone is different and has their own reasons. But I know why I generally don't. I have spent the last 25 years or so as a physician. I've watched people die. I've done chest compressions while what seemed like gallons of blood poured out of a man's mouth. I've cared for a young woman who was beaten and left for dead and when they found her she had maggots in her massive head wound and from then on could say only the word "no". I've told people they have a complete spinal cord injury. (One of whom elected to have his family take him off the ventilator resulting in death within minutes) I've counseled family members that their mother or father or son or daughter will likely not ever be able to be independent again, or speak, or walk. I've seen spouses for years never leave the side of their loved one who is only a shell of the person they used to be. I've made mistakes that resulted in a bad outcome for patients- one in particular I think about almost daily, and that was during my intern year almost 3 decades ago. And to be perfectly frank, I just can't get that worked up about an oaf of a man in the oval office who at least has surrounded himself with mostly smart and capable people, and who is constrained by the most wonderful governmental system ever created.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 18:42:07 GMT -5
Despite Amadan's arguably histrionic "bullshit" exclamation on this one But I didn't even use an exclamation point! I'll defend celaw's right to speak as well and I am all for diversity of opinions (I was not kidding when I said I didn't really want to get rid of Nighttimer). But I'm not apologizing for calling bullshit when I see it. FYI, to be clear, we didn't get rid of nighttimer. He is welcome back if he wants to come -- it is up to him.
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Post by Optimus on Dec 18, 2017 18:59:11 GMT -5
FYI, to be clear, we didn't get rid of nighttimer. He is welcome back if he wants to come -- it is up to him.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 19:10:19 GMT -5
And the reason some of us get worked up about Trump is that:
(1) we think he's unfit in every way, embarrassing, erratic, vulgar, nasty, dishonest, unstable, corrupt, and dangerous, and hey, that's enough right there for me to find it horrifying that he's president. I believe he is pushing us to the edge of war with North Korea, that he's alienating our allies, praising authoritarians and horror shows like Duterte while shoving Angela Merkels away, and thus weakening the entire western world and its values, not to mention creating a negative image of our entire country. It terrifies me that he has the nuclear codes. And I 150% think he has had dealings with Putin and the Russians that are improper (and gullible) at best and criminal or treasonous at worst.
(2) I think his lies and his continual attacks on our law enforcement, our courts, our intelligence community, and our free press are doing incalculable harm to our entire system of government and exacerbating divisions that will not be healed for a long time to come. That alone would be enough for me to find it horrifying that he's president.
(3) Even taking that aside, I think his tax, immigration, foreign policy and complete lack of health insurance plan (even as he eviserates obamacare) are an utter disaster. I'm horrified that he's adding 1.5 trillion to our deficit, and for the reasons he's doing it. Christ. But actually, of my three bullet points so far, this is the least of it, from my perspective. You can vote that out in the next election, though it might take a while to fix the harm.
(4) He has some smart people around him, but christ, how can you possibly laud what a great job he's doing appointing people when he's appointed freaking FLYNN, Scaramouche, judges who don't know basic first-year law (sure, Gorsuch was well-qualified, but some of his appointees are AWFUL)... when he has to be handled like a kindergartener, when he prefers briefings by Fox News rather than by U.S. intelligence.
I think we're teetering on the edge of a constitutional crisis, and I also believe we're in the midst of an immense economic bubble. Indeed, fwiw, I am currently making some shifts in my portfolio on that basis. The last time I said that was in 2008.
This isn't because Trump is a conservative. I still admire and like a lot of conservatives -- and, anyway, I don't think Trump IS a conservative. It's because Trump is Trump. He is uniquely horrible, and he is everything I abominate. I didn't think it would be good at this time last year, but lordy, I never thought it would be this bad.
For me this isn't like discussing Obama or Clinton or W or GHWB or Reagan or Romney or McCain or Flake, or, pretty nearly all the leaders and politicians I can think of. I liked some better than others, got pissed at them once in a while, but they did not scare and horrify me. Trump does -- and more so than he did last year at this time. Much more so.
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Post by robeiae on Dec 19, 2017 9:04:06 GMT -5
If objectivity was hair, I'd be Cousin It. But I digress... But going back to some tangents: 1) On the issue of criticizing the news outlets, I flipped on CNN yesterday and watched as Erin Burnett conducted a "breaking news" interview with some former Pentagon official on the subject of alien life zipping around Earth in UFOs. I kid you not. Here's an article culled from the interview and other stuff: www.cnn.com/2017/12/18/politics/luis-elizondo-ufo-pentagon/index.htmlMainstream news? 2) Kudos to Opty for properly sourcing an often incorrectly sourced quote (it's usually attributed to Voltaire). We really do need a diversity of opinions in order to have any fun...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 9:13:01 GMT -5
To be fair, aliens would explain a lot.
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Post by Amadan on Dec 19, 2017 10:21:02 GMT -5
If objectivity was hair, I'd be Cousin It. But I digress... But going back to some tangents: 1) On the issue of criticizing the news outlets, I flipped on CNN yesterday and watched as Erin Burnett conducted a "breaking news" interview with some former Pentagon official on the subject of alien life zipping around Earth in UFOs. I kid you not. Here's an article culled from the interview and other stuff: www.cnn.com/2017/12/18/politics/luis-elizondo-ufo-pentagon/index.htmlMainstream news? 2) Kudos to Opty for properly sourcing an often incorrectly sourced quote (it's usually attributed to Voltaire). We really do need a diversity of opinions in order to have any fun... Was CNN pushing that story to hide a bigger one? I mean, there is a difference between trying to bury a more important event and just filling time with a fluff piece.
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Post by robeiae on Dec 19, 2017 10:34:13 GMT -5
It was being pushed as "breaking news."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 10:54:50 GMT -5
Speaking of defending Trump for the sake of conservative policies, I think this article in the Atlantic is terrific. www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/548738/?__twitter_impression=true Read the whole thing--context is important -- but I'll give a snippet: I think this is dead on. I've long been a fan of a good many of the center-right sources Frum names here and I continue to be. But yes indeed, I have been watching the right's center of gravity spin away from them and towards Brietbart land, where I can never follow, and it horrifies me. We need our a strong center right as well as a strong center left, IMO. (The left has its extremists for sure -- but it's not where the center of gravity is, IMO.) And yes indeed, I think that last paragraph I quote nails it-- Trump actually benefits from being so over-the-top awful that any admission into his awfulness opens a whole world of ugly -- thus spurring many of his defenders to whistle and find some other ground to stand on. And yes, I think the meaning of conservative is changing, and not for the better. On the subject of political "objectivity", I think it has to be considered in this context. Halfway between two sides is not always the sweet spot. Often it is, yes -- but it depends where those two sides are. Sometimes "breathlessness" (the new favorite word of Trump defenders) and outrage is overdone -- but not always. Sometimes there is all too good cause. I very much stand with the beleaguered old-guard center-right on where we are now as a country. I don't think it's just hysteria (though sure, there's some, as there always is). I think we are teetering on a crisis point, and it behooves those of us who see it to speak up.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 11:05:16 GMT -5
It was being pushed as "breaking news." Putting out a piece of fluff is not the same thing as flooding the airwaves with fluff while major breaking news is happening. There has always been some fluff. Even when televised news was limited was limited to an hour from 6 pm and 11 pm, there was a daily fluff segment. That's not the same as covering up or ignoring real news, or spinning false reports about things that matter. And really, truly Rob -- you think WaPo, the NYTimes, CNN etc. and Fox are indistinguishable?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 11:16:49 GMT -5
Another snippet from the Atlantic article (gaah, read the whole thing, please):
ETA:
This article, for me, goes to the heart of a huge disconnect I experienced during this election and afterward (it's beyond a disconnect now). Most of the conservatives in my life and whom I follow on the pundit/politician side are with the Jennifer Rubins, the Evan McMullins, the Rick Wilsons, etc., with whom I can still relate and whom I've always thought of as "real" (sane) conservatives. I cannot grok that Trump and Bannon are now the mainstream right, and Moore a pill that mainstream could swallow. And I can't accept a "center" that is halfway between center-left and Bannonism.
ETA:
And here's the problem, IMO: the center left media isn't combating the rational center right -- they are combating Brietbart, Fox, Trump, and Bannon. (Indeed, the remains of the center right are now largely aligned with what is now the center left -- or at least closer to it than they are to the new mainstream right, IMO. )
Combating ugliness, illogic, obvious grift etc., when a substantial part of the population is either indifferent, oblivious, or complicit -- well, it's hard not to get a little "breathless" sometimes.
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