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Post by celawson on Jan 23, 2019 14:14:44 GMT -5
As long as there's room for interpretation, only Nick Sandmann can know his own intent. He states he didn't want to show disrespect by turning away from Mr. Phillips, and that he smiled so as not to escalate anything. That sounds reasonable. And it seems supported by the part of the video where he gestures to the kid behind him to stop. To me, that's not being a jerk. So why should he say publicly that he was being a jerk?
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Post by celawson on Jan 23, 2019 12:55:12 GMT -5
I really don't like the whole speculation stuff. I never said the group was "totally justified" for anything. Where do you get this reading of my posts? But I do think kids should be allowed to stand in place smiling without being pilloried. Or perform school cheers without receiving death threats. Your description is way over the top anyway, so it's not a fair comparison. The Covington kids did not "surround" anybody. IMO, they were not jeering and chanting to purposely mock like you describe. And, IMO, the Native Americans did not stride into the kids' personal space for "peace". LOL. There is one Native American who was clearly confrontational and yelling abuse at the teens. So it's difficult for me to join in here with your hypothetical, sorry. What is really clear, though, is that the MAGA hat is the main thing getting under your and others' skin. And that you still seem more angry at the kids than the awful people in the media who called for violence against them. That's what this discussion should really be about. We've all said at least more than once that the kids could have behaved better. Can't most kids in a similarly uncomfortable and new situation? Big revelation there. But they were not violent, or purposely cruel, or trying to instigate. I thought we had already moved on to the most important part of the discussion, which is the false and/or violent media/social media narrative and explosion against these kids. Because no matter how "obnoxious" you think they were, they did not deserve what they got from the MSM and social media. Case in point regarding the outright falsehoods being expressed: What world is she living in, that she could Tweet that? As a congressional rep? There are 4 or 5 outright lies in that Tweet. 5 if the PR firm isn't right wing. BTW, I saw 8 minutes of the Today interview with Nick Sandmann. I stand by my initial interpretation of the kid's behavior towards the drummer.
EDITED TO ADD:
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Post by celawson on Jan 22, 2019 20:46:40 GMT -5
Just like the initial video clips, I’m not going to make judgements about his interview unless I see more of the interview. I personally don’t think, from what I saw in the other clips and longer videos, that he needs to apologize for himself. He did say he wishes they walked away. But again, I’m not going to judge his interview until I actually see it.
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Post by celawson on Jan 22, 2019 14:29:36 GMT -5
I haven't once said we have to condemn any of the other groups. You talked about BHI more than I, because I have hardly mentioned them. You asked how the BHI group justifies anything, and I simply said the chaperone stated the boys wanted to cheer to drown out the insults.
My main point is that I don't think we would be having this discussion at all, if the initial response to the boys was what you said in other posts - that the boys were in some instances acting like immature and obnoxious teenagers, and so use this as a teachable moment. It's part of growing up. That's what should have been done. No social media anything. No demonizing. Teach. Implore them to be better. End of story.
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Post by celawson on Jan 22, 2019 13:26:22 GMT -5
A few thoughts in response to stuff people said in posts above: RE: surprise that high school students would attend: The March for Life is a big deal for Catholic young people. It's actually a big deal in itself. But you would never know from the lack of media attention to it. This one at the capitol was quite a huge event; estimates are 200,000 - 300,000 attendees. It's pretty common for Catholic high schools to send students on field trips there. heavy.com/news/2019/01/march-for-life-crowd-size-numbers-attended/RE: surprise that a kid would wear a MAGA hat to the March for Life.
Some people actually still like President Trump. This was his campaign slogan. Mike Pence was a featured speaker. Donald Trump was featured in a video speech to the crowd. It doesn't surprise me that some would choose to wear MAGA hats. I don't remember the military who asked Trump to sign their hats being called racist. I do not agree at all that MAGA hats are equivalent to white hoods. If so, why do plenty of black Americans wear them? Didn't Kanye go on SNL wearing one? RE: the kids should have been hauled off by their chaperones.
Maybe. But they were supposed to meet their bus at a pre-determined location. Imagine the crowds and confusion multiple buses and schools, and trying to find the right bus if you're not where you're supposed to be. Maybe they had a plane to catch, who knows? And maybe they thought the Native Americans approaching them would be a good cultural experience, who knows again? It didn't seem violent. And they likely trusted their kids to be decent. I've chaperoned Catholic school 8th grade kids on field trips, and it's not easy to "parent" other people's kids unless they are doing something egregious or unsafe. This was a lot of stuff to take in, and a lot of split-second decisions to make, and maybe the chaperones were puzzled like the kids were. Maybe staying in place as long as things were relatively calm seemed like the best thing to do. RE: why do the Black Hebrew Israelites' insults toward the boys justify the boys' behavior?
Per a chaperone interviewed on Fox, the boys asked their teacher if they could have permission to do a school cheer to drown out the insults, and that's why they did a school cheer. Now, unfortunately that cheer seems to be a Maori war dance type cheer, which multiple sports teams apparently perform (including New Zealand soccer teams, and we have friends whose son plays D1 college football in Arizona and their team does it too). Some see this as cultural appropriation and disrespect, others see it as complimenting and wanting to emulate the toughness and strength of Maori warriors. YMMV. Here's that Fox News interview with the chaperone. www.foxnews.com/us/covington-high-school-students-mom-speaks-out-about-viral-video-encounterAll in all it's another example of social media pile on which really is frightening. I mean, a kid whom I see simply smiling and trying to be polite, others want TO DIE (AND HIS PARENTS TO DIE) because they see a smirk. And some of these calling for violence and death are people in prominent media positions, too. So a kid and his parents should die because his expression might be construed as a smirk? DOES THIS EVEN COMPUTE, PEOPLE? I don't think the defenders of these kids are saying so much that the kids are perfect angels, but more that these kids do not deserve the level of hatred they are receiving for what they actually did. And that's true no matter which side of the political spectrum you fall on.
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Post by celawson on Jan 20, 2019 22:34:58 GMT -5
Yes it does appear some of the boys were confused. A couple of times you can here them say, “What is happening?”
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Post by celawson on Jan 20, 2019 21:44:18 GMT -5
Why can’t more people be like you, Optimus?
And yes I agree the MAGA hats were a likely trigger for a lot of this.
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Post by celawson on Jan 20, 2019 21:17:31 GMT -5
Do people here see intimidating behavior in the kid in grey? I just don't see it. It looks to me like he's uncomfortable but trying to be polite. And if these kids have been educated like my own daughters (who went to Catholic school K-8th grade then public high school), they've been taught quite a bit about the wrongs done to Native Americans.
I will say this, it's certainly en vogue to go after white males, and things like the Gillette ad, IMO, likely contributed to the ease with which people saw these young men as villains.
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Post by celawson on Jan 20, 2019 20:11:42 GMT -5
Thanks for the analysis, Cassandra. I know you and I disagree on many things, but I do appreciate when you explain things from a lawyerly perspective.
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Post by celawson on Jan 20, 2019 16:57:34 GMT -5
I’ve been at my daughter’s mock trial tournament at UCLA today, or I would have posted about this. Thank you, Optimus, for being so comprehensive and for your ability to be objective.
I watched an initial video clip yesterday, and even without the context or longer clip or stories, my first reaction was “Where’s the mocking and intimidation?” I was honestly puzzled. I showed it to my husband today and he had no clue about the story and I didn’t set it up, and his first comment was, “Heh, look st the guy in the gray just standing there smiling.” And my husband said it in a sort of complimentary way like, the guy singing was in his face and all he did was stand there and smile.
This poor kid is being called all sorts of terrible things, especially racist. People on Twitter are calling for his expulsion from School and for him to be blacklisted from all potential colleges. I mean REALLY?
I don’t have much time to comment right now but man, I feel like I’m watching an episode of Black Mirror play out right in front of us. This is bad.
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Post by celawson on Jan 19, 2019 0:29:31 GMT -5
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Post by celawson on Jan 18, 2019 14:07:39 GMT -5
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Post by celawson on Jan 18, 2019 13:16:41 GMT -5
Any confirmation of the story yet?
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Post by celawson on Jan 18, 2019 12:00:09 GMT -5
When you've heard a thousand times over the last two years there's a bombshell story about to break that will finally take down Trump, it's really difficult to do much besides eye roll at number 1001.
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Post by celawson on Jan 17, 2019 14:21:09 GMT -5
In a country where there are countless examples of people, both born here and who have immigrated here, who have started from nothing and ended up either comfortable or wealthy, it is a stretch to note that living pay check to pay check is "an unescapable reality for millions of Americans". Unescapable is the stretch part.
Of course there are tragic examples - illness or injury can devastate a family I absolutely admit that. But these aren't the majority. And I would venture to say the majority of government workers who just can't financially survive this shut-down likely have been poorly managing their money for years. It's not my fault, and it's not privilege's fault, sorry.
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