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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 15:32:15 GMT -5
I remember how well "using words" worked with kids who were inclined to hit other kids...
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Post by robeiae on Apr 15, 2018 16:12:13 GMT -5
Yeaaaaaaah...
I have to admit that I am now--based on markesq's followup post--uncomfortable with my initial take and recommendations on this situation. Which I guess reflects a reality: it's difficult to give advice on real life situations when all you are getting is limited info via the internet. This isn't to suggestion any funny business, to be clear. Markesq gave us a brief description of the event and the exchanges he had with the admin and asked for feedback. Necessarily, he couldn't have included every single bit of information. So my initial take was based on what he said and revolved around my apparently incorrect assumptions--to some degree--about who the kids were to each other and how exactly their interactions became physical. This line in markesq's follow-up post begs for some expansion, imo:
I'm not sure what "basketball banter" is, exactly. Trash talking? Were the boys trading insults, to the extent that the other got embarrassed and lashed out? If so, who started that? Since the specter of "bullying" has been raised, it's only fair to point out that bullying behavior isn't limited to the physical. Yet, I don't want to be accusing anyone here, especially not markesq's kid, since I don't know him or all of the details. But neither do I know the other kid involved.
So I'm going to revise my position:
IF there is near-perfect clarity on the facts, to the extent that one thinks the initial attack was unprovoked, then it's worth fighting the admin's decision. But if that attack can be seen--from the other boy's perspective--as more of "red mist" moment brought on by some taunting (even if it was back-and-forth), I think it's better to let it go, especially if the boys are actual friends.
True story:
When my son was in middle school, I got called there one day to pick him up because he was very, very upset and could not stop crying. The vice principal told me that this was the result of another boy making fun of my son and calling him names, but also told me that my son absolutely did not want anything done about it. Eventually, I got some details about the incident from my son and from other sources. My son and his friends razzed each other all of the time, as kids and even adults are wont to do, and in an extended back and forth of such behavior--which my son was fully participating in--the other boy simply hit a sore spot and my son more or less lost it. I think it's entirely possible that my son could have acted out in a physical way in that moment, as opposed to breaking down. And indeed, doing so might have spared him some of the embarrassment that he felt, which likely grew quickly because he couldn't calm down, thus making a minor deal into a big deal. And ultimately, the other boy was mortified about the whole thing; he came to my house immediately after school to apologize, and he did so quite sincerely. I never heard another word about the incident and boys are still good friends (this was five or so years ago). FWIW.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 16:25:22 GMT -5
Mark is in a better position than any of us to evaluate what the deal is. He knows his kid, and his kid (if not Mark himself) knows the other kid. I also think Mark is pretty level-headed and not unduly given to kneejerk "my kid, right or wrong." Therefore, I give his interpretation of events full credence. (And in context of this thread, I think that's appropriate. Were this a news story we were all evaluating and none of us had any other knowledge about it, that would be a different thing.) So I saw this as a pure "school has x rule, but instead of applying it, is applying invented rule y-- should I fight it or let it go?" question, not a "gee, could I be misinterpreting what happened with the boys?" question.
I never got into fisticuffs with an actual friend of mine. Maybe this is a boy thing? To me, responding to sportsball talk with a shove is...well, maybe boys are different.
I did, however, have a "friend" who used to shove me around because that's just what she was like, and also had a bully who actively went after me (and a lot of other kids). I didn't like either situation, but I never asked anyone for help (and if asked, probably would have implored them not to intercede) because I feared things would get worse with the bully, and with the first kid, I thought she was "cool" and I wanted to preserve the "friendship" with her and her "friends."
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Post by robeiae on Apr 15, 2018 16:45:18 GMT -5
Mark is in a better position than any of us to evaluate what the deal is. He knows his kid, and his kid (if not Mark himself) knows the other kid. I also think Mark is pretty level-headed and not unduly given to kneejerk "my kid, right or wrong." Therefore, I give his interpretation of events full credence. Really, I don't want to disagree, at all. But again, this is an internet exchange, where--since we can't possibly know anything more than what we are told about the situation--we have to make assumptions. I made one: based on Mark's first post, I assumed the boys involved were not really friends. And that impacted what I said, especially regarding bullying. Yet, the followup noted that they were "basically friends," which might be something different. It also might be Mark being as diplomatic as possible in his exchanges with the principal. Then there's the "basketball banter," which is unclear to me and which also might just be Mark being diplomatic. Regardless, I can't criticize his response to all of this, because I wasn't there. And I certainly don't see any evidence of a knee-jerk reaction on Mark's part. Still, the question was: should he fight this. Initially, I said "yes," but I can see the possibility of me changing that to a "no." And not fighting it wouldn't mean--as a matter of course--that the school was 100% right in their decision, at all. Because one does need to pick one's battles. Not that I think Mark is gonna listen to me, at this point in time...
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Post by Christine on Apr 15, 2018 16:48:40 GMT -5
God, no. I never suggested running, or telling. I suggested NOT pushing back. Using words. I wouldn't suggest this in every instance of shoving, either. It depends on the circumstances. Since none of us seem to know for sure what the circumstances were, I suggested an alternative viewpoint. That's all. So then what happens if the other boy continued to push and shove and knee? If a push back didn't stop further action, is it really conceivable that Henry could have used any sort of words to de-escalate it? If the other boy continued to shove, then OBVIOUSLY that would be a change in the circumstances. And no, a "push back" can be viewed as a willingness to fight. Words CAN work better. Sometimes they don't, but it's worth a fucking try. No, I am most certainly NOT saying that. FFS. If that's what you're getting from all I've posted here, you're not reading my posts. I remember how well "using words" worked with kids who were inclined to hit other kids... You are making an assumption that this kid was a kid who was "inclined to hit other kids." That's not a factual statement. In fact, everyone has been making assumptions here. I've suggested an a couple of alternative courses of action, and possible reasons why the school ruled the way they did, because we don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 16:55:23 GMT -5
Mark is in a better position than any of us to evaluate what the deal is. He knows his kid, and his kid (if not Mark himself) knows the other kid. I also think Mark is pretty level-headed and not unduly given to kneejerk "my kid, right or wrong." Therefore, I give his interpretation of events full credence. Really, I don't want to disagree, at all. But again, this is an internet exchange, where--since we can't possibly know anything more than what we are told about the situation--we have to make assumptions. I made one: based on Mark's first post, I assumed the boys involved were not really friends. And that impacted what I said, especially regarding bullying. Yet, the followup noted that they were "basically friends," which might be something different. It also might be Mark being as diplomatic as possible in his exchanges with the principal. Then there's the "basketball banter," which is unclear to me and which also might just be Mark being diplomatic. Regardless, I can't criticize his response to all of this, because I wasn't there. And I certainly don't see any evidence of a knee-jerk reaction on Mark's part. Still, the question was: should he fight this. Initially, I said "yes," but I can see the possibility of me changing that to a "no." And not fighting it wouldn't mean--as a matter of course--that the school was 100% right in their decision, at all. Because one does need to pick one's battles. Not that I think Mark is gonna listen to me, at this point in time... I don't know what "basketball banter" means either. Not being a sportsball type, it's hard for me to imagine getting into a physical altercation over a sports discussion! (Now, if you're going to go insulting my favorite music or something...) But this is kind of why I draw my line at the knee to the stomach and not the shoves. If it had stopped at the "basketball banter" and a couple of shoves, I doubt very much the school would have punished either boy. Any way I envision the scenario, the knee to the stomach was a yuuuuge escalation, IMO, way out of proportion to a shove (especially when the kid shoved first). And I can't see expecting Mark's kid not to respond to that. Hell, I'd respond to that. *shoves Rob*
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Post by prozyan on Apr 15, 2018 17:30:56 GMT -5
You have rather a gift for brief replies, Prozyan. It is a gift and a curse. Basically put and without getting into my life philosophy I'll say that once a conflict escalates into physical contact all bets are off. There is a lot of talk about walking away, refusing to engage, not escalating and proportional response. All that is great and I don't really have a problem with any of it. But I don't have a problem with an asymmetric response either. Of course I'm not saying an appropriate response to a shove is to pull out a gun, knife or other weapon. An aggressive shove is a threat. It is a threat of physical violence from another person. I firmly believe the victim of the shove has an absolute right to end that threat and end it decisively. I'm willing to admit my views are extreme and not mainstream and most won't agree with me. But I won't apologize for it. I believe if someone gives you an aggressive shove they are looking for a fight. I believe you end that fight. I believe you win not only that fight, but also win future fights with your actions. If someone shoves you and gets in return a fist to the nose, the odds of that person ever shoving you again are remote. On top of that the odds of anyone else shoving you go way down. And to conclude, if you don't want to get punched in the nose, don't start physical contact with someone.
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Post by Vince524 on Apr 15, 2018 19:01:40 GMT -5
Clearly, we can't go back in time and know what would have happened if Henry had told him to knock it off, but it stands to reason if a response shove didn't get the other kid to back off, and instead escalated it, so would have Henry telling him off. Is it possible for someone to have spoken words that could have resolved the situation? Maybe, hard if not impossible to say. I don't have an issue with someone trying. But I don't know that it's reasonable to have expected Henry who is 13 I think without skipping back, to have those words. Or that he, as another kid, would have had the authority convey them. A teacher would be different. Sure I am. I'm not agreeing. We're not talking about that there may not have been an alternative. You said you wouldn't expect Henry to run and tattle, and yet shoving back is also wrong. Again, it's fine to think Henry should have just said something, but as a kid that was picked on every day in school from Kindergarten all the way to high school, to the point of torment, there generally are no magic words to make someone back off. If you say something that sounds like an adult, you're just asking to get hit even more. Shouldn't be, but it is. Let's say Henry did try saying something and the kid continued. What then? I remember how well "using words" worked with kids who were inclined to hit other kids... You are making an assumption that this kid was a kid who was "inclined to hit other kids." That's not a factual statement. In fact, everyone has been making assumptions here. I've suggested an a couple of alternative courses of action, and possible reasons why the school ruled the way they did, because we don't know. If they told the Henry to do an essay on alternative actions, or even addressed them, you might have a point. They're not. They're punishing them. Both. Equally.
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Post by markesq on Apr 20, 2018 12:08:25 GMT -5
Hi folks, sorry for the radio silence. I was away at a conference and took my work computer only, which then didn't work. Oy. I have read all your thoughtful comments, though, thanks for those. To clarify on what seems to be a confusing point, the "basketball banter," which Henry told me was essentially each boy saying, "I'm better than you at basketball." Standard kid stuff. I think, too, had it remained at pushing/shoving the admin wouldn't have gotten involved. But, to those doubters who think fighting a school bureaucracy is a waste of time... we won! The school backed down, and said Henry can go on the field trip. I'm particularly pleased that this results was achieved by calm, rational discussion, and only one mention of my job as a prosecutor...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 12:14:52 GMT -5
Well done, sir!
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Post by Vince524 on May 9, 2018 8:56:45 GMT -5
Hi folks, sorry for the radio silence. I was away at a conference and took my work computer only, which then didn't work. Oy. I have read all your thoughtful comments, though, thanks for those. To clarify on what seems to be a confusing point, the "basketball banter," which Henry told me was essentially each boy saying, "I'm better than you at basketball." Standard kid stuff. I think, too, had it remained at pushing/shoving the admin wouldn't have gotten involved. But, to those doubters who think fighting a school bureaucracy is a waste of time... we won! The school backed down, and said Henry can go on the field trip. I'm particularly pleased that this results was achieved by calm, rational discussion, and only one mention of my job as a prosecutor... I missed this, but I'm glad it worked out.
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