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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 16:26:51 GMT -5
I do agree with this - "Don't blame Trump for acting like Trump" is facile. He is to blame for the choices he makes, and he's chosen the worst possible way to go about this. Agree. And frankly, it is one of the things that caused my head to explode here. (Though yes, obviously I am profoundly upset at the stories I've been reading about these kids and every damn aspect of this.)
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Post by Christine on Jun 19, 2018 16:37:26 GMT -5
How about waterboarding as an analogy. We've decided that waterboarding terrorists -- people who've committed heinous crimes -- is inhumane, and we don't do it anymore.
Children being separated from their parents, alone in a strange place, with no human contact, no sympathy, no information, fear, anxiety, uncertainty, confusion, and apparently in some cases deplorable living conditions -- that's psychologically waterboarding a child, imo. And it's being done because mom or dad committed a misdemeanor offense.
If we had the funding to take care of these children properly, and if illegal immigration were actually a crisis situation in the US, some of the arguments here might make sense. But neither of these ifs are the case, as far as I can tell.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 16:42:17 GMT -5
A bit of an update -- as I already mentioned above, all the Dem Senators have signed onto a bill to stop the family separation policy.
The GOP Senators have not signed onto that bill to my knowledge, at least not yet. However, 12 of them have sent a demand to Jeff Sessions to stop the policy immediately. Text at the tweet below.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 16:45:47 GMT -5
And on the, "hey, this is a short term separation":
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Post by Amadan on Jun 19, 2018 16:47:30 GMT -5
How about waterboarding as an analogy. We've decided that waterboarding terrorists -- people who've committed heinous crimes -- is inhumane, and we don't do it anymore. Children being separated from their parents, alone in a strange place, with no human contact, no sympathy, no information, fear, anxiety, uncertainty, confusion, and apparently in some cases deplorable living conditions -- that's psychologically waterboarding a child, imo. And it's being done because mom or dad committed a misdemeanor offense. If we had the funding to take care of these children properly, and if illegal immigration were actually a crisis situation in the US, some of the arguments here might make sense. But neither of these ifs are the case, as far as I can tell. I think we actually could take care of these children a lot better than we are. There is a lack of appropriate funding, to be sure, but it really seems to boil down to the administration ordering ICE to be as ruthless and cruel as they can legally get away with. That combined with already over-stretched agencies having to accommodate a surge of kids as these new polices are implemented. Which is to say, I agree that our current handling of these families is immoral, but not that separation in itself is equivalent to slavery or waterboarding. I do want to address the "It's only a misdemeanor" point, though. It's only a misdemeanor because we don't want to imprison illegal aliens for felonies, we'd rather just deport them. Normally, a citizen charged with a misdemeanor is living where he's legally allowed to reside, and if he doesn't show up to court we can find him. Or there will be a warrant for his arrest and sooner or later it will catch up to him. For an illegal immigrant, that's not a deterrent since they were already planning to live here illegally.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 16:50:50 GMT -5
I don't know what you mean. Legally, crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor. That's an actual legal fact, not some skirt-around term we use to be nice. It's one that can call for a fine or imprisonment -- does not require the person be thrown into federal prison (much less have their kids dumped in a cage.) I cite the statute above somewhere.
That's what I mean when I say that legally, this is just a misdemeanor, and doesn't require us to imprison them. That's why I say this is all about Trump's policy, and not something the law requires. He CAN do what he's doing, but it's not "oh, he's just the only one enforcing what Teh Law requires."
We're not just calling it a misdemeanor. It IS a misdemeanor.
Seriously, I know I'm emotional about this (I can't help it, looking at what is happening to these kids), but now I'm wondering if that's causing you guys to simply ignore what I'm saying and citing.
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Post by Amadan on Jun 19, 2018 16:55:49 GMT -5
My point is that the argument has been made that it's ridiculous to treat this particular misdemeanor differently than we would treat other misdemeanors. But it is different from other misdemeanors - writing a ticket and letting them go is effectively not enforcing it at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 16:57:12 GMT -5
I do not think you've made the case for why it's "different" from other misdemeanors.
If Congress had intended to make it a more serious offense, it certainly could have done so. It didn't. It's a misdemeanor.
One that, yes, we can imprison for -- or, hey, that we also, under the statute have the option of citing for a $50 fine that's literally less than half what you'd be fined if you ride a bike on the sidewalk in NYC. I posted the statute above. Check it out. Many offenses, like this one, have a range of potential penalties from a slap on the wrist to more substantial ones, with discretion on applying them. Trump is literally choosing the most draconian possible choice all the way across the board, just so he can say "oh, we have to take your kids away now."
It is like giving the life sentence to the pot dealer, as Haggis noted above, when there's plenty of discretion to give a slap on the wrist.
ETAL
Also, remember that some of these people are legitimate asylum seekers who tried numerous times to come in via a port of entry, and failed because the Trump administration is deliberately making it impossible. Then when they get here, we toss them in prison, take their kids away, separate them, toss them in separate cages unable to see or contact each other (probably not even knowing where they are), and say "if you want to see your kids again, give up your asylum claim."
And ICE people are admitting that hundreds of these kids may never see their parents again. See my cite above -- there are others, if you need them.
Our government took a kid with DOWNS SYNDROME away from her parents. Come on.
What country are we living in, again?
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Post by michaelw on Jun 19, 2018 17:48:17 GMT -5
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Post by prozyan on Jun 19, 2018 18:11:43 GMT -5
You don't blame the scorpion for stinging the fox, even though they will both surely drown. It is the scorpion's nature.
I don't blame Trump for acting in accordance to his nature. This doesn't mean I don't think he should be held without contempt, disgust, or rebuke.
Much like you don't blame a rabid dog for being rabid. But you still put it down.
ETA: I wonder.....how many more times can Cass's head explode before there is permanent damage?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 18:40:13 GMT -5
Clearly, the zero tolerance policy plus a border wall will save oceans of money, too! TOTES worth taking Downs Syndrome kids from their parents, possibly forever, and putting them alone in a cage.
MAGA!
ETA:
Aaaaaand before anyone says the thing about the Downs child being taken from her parents is Fake News, I regret to say it was reported on Fox News, and therefore must be true:
ETA -- by the way, you must actually watch that clip in my second twitter link. I kind of buried the lede. Corey Lewandowsky was asked about the Downs syndrome child, and he really does go "womp womp" -- i.e, he made a dismissive sound like you might make in response to a sitcom bloopers reel. He really doesn't think that taking a Downs syndrome child from her parents and caging her is a problem. Well, border boosters? Do you? Do you think it's a big deal?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 18:54:29 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 19:53:07 GMT -5
ETA: I wonder.....how many more times can Cass's head explode before there is permanent damage? Just as well I have a really thick skull. Because I just keep coming across shit that I cannot fucking rationalize or laugh at. E.g., A month is a verrrrry long time when you are one year old. Wonder whether they'll recognize their parents when (and if) they see them again? But hey, border control. MAGA. Trump being Trump. ETA: Oh, an 8-month old taken away from mom over a month ago. Maybe he'lk see mom again some day. Literally pulling them off the breast, we are. MAGA. Borders.
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Post by poetinahat on Jun 19, 2018 19:54:49 GMT -5
I've skimmed the past few pages of this thread. I'm really heartened to see the depth, passion, rigour, and respect that you all are applying.
So, even if there aren't any happy endings yet, at least one lurker is uplifted by what you're doing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 20:04:52 GMT -5
I've skimmed the past few pages of this thread. I'm really heartened to see the depth, passion, rigour, and respect that you all are applying. So, even if there aren't any happy endings yet, at least one lurker is uplifted by what you're doing. MAGA! Oops, need to shift gears. What I mean is -- Poet, so nice to see you. I've missed you. I have a guess which side of this particular debate you're likely on, though I won't try to force anyone to enter this arena who isn't raring to get into it. Get some popcorn and watch. I suppose it is mildly impressive that so far we've managed to discuss a very hot-button topic with yes, some sneering and emotion and yelling, but no actual personal attacks. Yet.
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