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Post by Optimus on Jan 21, 2019 23:38:28 GMT -5
I have no agenda. The kids are being asshats. I don't want to see them crucified. I would like to see them do better. I think giving them some context that blackface is not a harmless fun custom to most of us might be good for when they get out of Kentucky, for example, and that doing Indian war chants at Native American elders might be construed as racist. I totally agree and edited my other post to reflect that because I hadn't seen the tweet you linked to before I posted it the first time. My overall argument is not at all that the kids are blameless or that some of the weren't acting like little shits. Just that this entire debacle is yet another example of the media running wild with a mostly false narrative that not only damages their own reputation even more, but damages cultural relations and gives Trump more ammo for his war on "fake news." It's death by a thousand cuts. Just like with Trump, we should absolutely call people out for things they've actually said and done. But, the amount of pure misinformation that people have heard about what happened here and have truly caused themselves to believe through egregiously faulty reasoning is truly mystifying to me, and I research this shit for a living. I truly wonder if the obscene amount of partisan cognitive dissonance displayed by so many people in reaction to this story would've been nearly this bad had this story happened even 3 or 4 years ago. Sadly, I think it wouldn't have even been close to this. This story was the equivalent to an ideological Rorschach Test. When these types of stories come out, it's best to stop, take a deep breath, step back, and wait for more evidence instead of rushing to judgment. Unfortunately, we can't even expect that of our news sources anymore. Instead, they're often leading the charge in the opposite direction and I find that deeply upsetting.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 22, 2019 11:09:29 GMT -5
Really, I don't get it. How does the Black Israelites assholishness bear on the kid's assholishness to the Native Americans at all? Why is it that the actions of the kids is the most outrageous thing ever, something that needed to be highlighted over and over again by every media outlet, by every twitter and FB genius? Why not highlight the people who behaving the worst in all of this, the people who are the most culpable for the incident? Obviously, because that doesn't provide an angle to also criticize Trump, to summon the spectre of "privilege." And imo, supposing that the kids should have ignored the Hebrew Israelites--who were not ignoring the kids--is, I think, exceedingly unfair. I mean, the Native American group and Nathan Phillips in particular could have ignored the kids, no? But that's not what he did. He purposefully interjected himself into their midst, as Optimus has shown. Why is he the one player in all of this who is apparently blameless and a total victim (according to the outrage crowd, anyway)? But again...despite all of the above, despite the reality of all of the players--imo--not putting their best forward, nothing of real significance actually happened. Yet for most of those who were in the initial dogpile on the kids, this is not acceptable. And it's certainly not acceptable to allow that maybe everyone was a little bit wrong. Thus, rather than allow that maybe they over-reacted, they're now busily searching for "corroborating evidence" to prove that these kids are totes white supremacists, racists, and assholes. Always have been, always will be. Oh, and look: www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/01/22/covington-catholic-high-school-backlash-protests/2642568002/Sweet. There was apparently going to be a protest at the school today, as well, by a Native American org, but I don't know if it happened.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 11:29:48 GMT -5
I'm wondering, Rob -- did you watch the full hour long tape, and also the other tapes from different perspectives, including the ones right up close to the kids? I'm asking that question of all of you. Or are you taking somebody's word for what they do and don't show?
If the bone of contention here was rudeness to the Black Israelites, your point might be valid. Since what is contentious is the kid's behavior to the Native American elder and his group, it's a fail.
The Black Israelites were proselytizing in front of the Lincoln Memorial. That's a yuuuuuge area. The area where the kids were supposed to catch the bus was down the street a block away.
Those kids had exactly the same choice I face every time I see the Black Israelites and assorted other groups preaching on street corners: stand around listening, interacting with them, or walking away. I choose walking away every time, because that's what you do when you have an extremist group proselytizing on the street.
The Black Israelites didn't go up to the kids and start harassing them. They didn't pursue them to the bus stop. The kids chose to stand there. They not only chose to stand there listening -- but in fact, they went beyond that. They started yelling stuff and jumping down and tearing off their shirts and doing mocking routines. That's how it escalated. The chaperones could have pulled them to some other area and the whole thing would have ended. They didn't.
Again, the Native Americans did NOT call the kids crackers, etc.
Again, how the fuck do the Black Israelites have shit to do with how the kids behaved towards the Native Americans?
You want me to say extremists on street corners yelling shit is rude? Fine. Done. They are. The Black Israelites, the Westboro Baptists, the many other factions I see on a daily fucking basis in Times Square -- they are all rude as fuck.
Am I therefore entitled to be rude to everyone else I see, because I see all these rude extremists every day? Do I get extra permission to be obnoxious to third parties if I chose to stand around listening and interacting with the rude extremists?
Of course I don't condone death threats, not towards anyone, and especially not towards kids. I join heartily in condemnation of those people. Indeed, I gave hell to a facebook friend who was hoping the kids got "prison fucked." (He has since deleted that post, and yes, it was because I gave him what for.)
But again, does the fact that some kooks out there behaved badly to the kids after the fact somehow retroactively justify the kids whooping up jeering Native American chants?
I don't have a problem condemning the Black Israelites or the death threat trolls, at all. Agree. It's bad. I DO have a problem with saying the kids' behavior was fine and harmless, or somehow justified.
ETA:
And my biggest problem of all is reserved for the Covington Catholic school adults, on several counts.
First and foremost, they should have hauled the kids off to another area as soon as that situation started to escalate -- or sooner. I wouldn't let a bunch of kids I was chaperoning stand around listening to a guy screaming on the street corner.
But even before that -- WTF kind of field trip is this in the first place? A bunch of boys (all boys) going to another city to protest abortion -- wearing MAGA hats? We sure as hell weren't doing shit like that at MY high school as a school event. WTF.
ETA:
If I heard anyone bending over backward to justify the behavior of the Black Israelites or the people issuing death threats, I'd be all over it. But I actually don't hear that at all, not from anyone who isn't a bit kooky. I DO hear serious people claiming that what the kids did was totes fine and that they are poor little victims. It isn't and they are not.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 12:01:28 GMT -5
Seriously, this school seems to have an issue -- a lot of issues:
I didn't act like this as a teenager. My male friends didn't act like this as teenagers. We got drunk and stupid sometimes, but we didn't stand around in mobs jeering at people or say ugly racist or sexist things to them. I refuse to pooh pooh this as just normal stuff. These kids could still grow up to be okay human beings -- but honestly, I think they need people telling them that this shit is horrible, and it doesn't seem like their school and parents are doing it.
To the extent I see people defending the Black Israelites as poor innocent inoffensive angels, I will happily take them to task. Point me to them. Anyone? Bueller?
ETA:
When I was a Catholic schoolgirl, the lessons I was hearing from parents and teachers was "turn the other cheek" "I don't care what THEY'RE doing, I care what YOU"RE doing" "two wrongs don't make a right" "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" "the meek shall inherit the earth" "take care of the poor" "forgive others their trespasses". Oh, and let's not forget "be respectful to your elders."
I just can't imagine a scenario where my brother and I would have been acting like those kids and not been in serious fucking trouble. Kids who mobbed up to jeer at others and say ugly things -- yeah, they did exist. We had a name for them.
Not sure what happened that now so many are all "meh, kids are gonna kid" at stuff like this.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 22, 2019 12:51:24 GMT -5
Okay, let's break it down. I haven't seen much on the MAGA kid where he's saying much of anything. He seems to just stand there, staring right back at the elder, and smirking. Do I think that was him trying to diffuse or deescalate that situation? No, it's unlikley and if it was it was badly done.
Having said that, if someone for no understandable reason walks up to you, starts chanting, and beats a drum a few inches from your face, is smirking at him to say you're not going to be intimidated such horrible behavior?
For all the people calling for this kids head, I don't see much criticism towards the Black Israelites. It's not a matter of people defending them. They just don't seem to be bothered by it at all.
Nor does anyone (Except of course the ppl defending the kids) feel bothered by the Elder's actions, inserting himself into a situation and beating a drum in a kids face.
So I don't have a problem if someone wants to pull the kids aside and have a conversation about how they could have handled it better. Some of the behavior seems like mocking, but people mock others all the time. Sometimes it's mean, sometimes we see it as justified because the person is being an ass. Yes, based on their faith, they should have risen above, and they didn't. Teachable moment? Sure. Reason for expulsions to death threats? No. So I want to hear condemnation of those people who are doing that. Kathy Griffin anyone? She still wants their names.
And if we're going to have a heart to heart with the kids, where is the outrage at the Black Israelites? I see none from the side that is calling for action against the kids. And less towards the elder.
But the kids are the only thing up for debate.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 13:14:05 GMT -5
Did you watch all the videos?
Did you read my posts on those exact points?
No and no?
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Post by celawson on Jan 22, 2019 13:26:22 GMT -5
A few thoughts in response to stuff people said in posts above: RE: surprise that high school students would attend: The March for Life is a big deal for Catholic young people. It's actually a big deal in itself. But you would never know from the lack of media attention to it. This one at the capitol was quite a huge event; estimates are 200,000 - 300,000 attendees. It's pretty common for Catholic high schools to send students on field trips there. heavy.com/news/2019/01/march-for-life-crowd-size-numbers-attended/RE: surprise that a kid would wear a MAGA hat to the March for Life.
Some people actually still like President Trump. This was his campaign slogan. Mike Pence was a featured speaker. Donald Trump was featured in a video speech to the crowd. It doesn't surprise me that some would choose to wear MAGA hats. I don't remember the military who asked Trump to sign their hats being called racist. I do not agree at all that MAGA hats are equivalent to white hoods. If so, why do plenty of black Americans wear them? Didn't Kanye go on SNL wearing one? RE: the kids should have been hauled off by their chaperones.
Maybe. But they were supposed to meet their bus at a pre-determined location. Imagine the crowds and confusion multiple buses and schools, and trying to find the right bus if you're not where you're supposed to be. Maybe they had a plane to catch, who knows? And maybe they thought the Native Americans approaching them would be a good cultural experience, who knows again? It didn't seem violent. And they likely trusted their kids to be decent. I've chaperoned Catholic school 8th grade kids on field trips, and it's not easy to "parent" other people's kids unless they are doing something egregious or unsafe. This was a lot of stuff to take in, and a lot of split-second decisions to make, and maybe the chaperones were puzzled like the kids were. Maybe staying in place as long as things were relatively calm seemed like the best thing to do. RE: why do the Black Hebrew Israelites' insults toward the boys justify the boys' behavior?
Per a chaperone interviewed on Fox, the boys asked their teacher if they could have permission to do a school cheer to drown out the insults, and that's why they did a school cheer. Now, unfortunately that cheer seems to be a Maori war dance type cheer, which multiple sports teams apparently perform (including New Zealand soccer teams, and we have friends whose son plays D1 college football in Arizona and their team does it too). Some see this as cultural appropriation and disrespect, others see it as complimenting and wanting to emulate the toughness and strength of Maori warriors. YMMV. Here's that Fox News interview with the chaperone. www.foxnews.com/us/covington-high-school-students-mom-speaks-out-about-viral-video-encounterAll in all it's another example of social media pile on which really is frightening. I mean, a kid whom I see simply smiling and trying to be polite, others want TO DIE (AND HIS PARENTS TO DIE) because they see a smirk. And some of these calling for violence and death are people in prominent media positions, too. So a kid and his parents should die because his expression might be construed as a smirk? DOES THIS EVEN COMPUTE, PEOPLE? I don't think the defenders of these kids are saying so much that the kids are perfect angels, but more that these kids do not deserve the level of hatred they are receiving for what they actually did. And that's true no matter which side of the political spectrum you fall on.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 14:05:42 GMT -5
They were a block away from where the buses were picking them up. Presumably, that bus stop is where their chaperones were, since they sure in hell don't seem to be in the crowd. (If they are, worst chaperones ever. Srsly.) So, the boys had no choice but to stand there? Really?
I don't, at all, see a kid just smiling and trying to be polite. Nor do I see a kid looking scared and uncertain. I see a kid showing off for his mob of jeering friends. Watch the original close up video. They are cheering him on, laughing, yelling at the Elder "you can't move him!" and doing fake tomahawk chopping movements. I gotta ask -- did you watch the close up videos? Or just snippets of the far away ones and some characterizations of them, and the kid's own self-serving explanation? (Why does his statement get your unquestioned credence, but not that of Mr. Philips and the accounts of others who saw the kids behaving as a "mob"? Sure, criticize people doing the reverse. But be aware you're doing it.) Because I don't think that read holds up, at all, unless you only watch selected snippets. (That's why I watched a bunch of stuff before I weighed in. You can see it from a few perspectives, close-up and far away. If you didn't, if you're going on what some article says, well, go watch them before you make a full-throated defense of the kids.)
No one defends the death threats. No one defends the Black Israelites. There were probably three or four other little proselytizing groups out there, too, between that spot and the bus stop, a few pickpockets and other assorted assholes. No one is defending them either. But a shitload of people are defending these boys' behavior is fine. A shitload of people are saying that the Black Israelites behavior justifies the boys' behavior. A shitload of people are retroactively justifying the boys' behavior based on a few very ugly people's behavior now.
If what you are saying is "we can't criticize these boys and their chaperones without thoroughly criticizing the Black Israelites because they behaved badly, too, and it's not enough to say, 'yes, they behaved badly, but""...fine. I say we can't discuss all this stupid shit and AOC's latest saying or Hillary's latest saying until we thoroughly discuss all the horrible shit Trump has done and is doing, the shutdown, and all that much bigger stuff going on in the nation. After all, it's unquestionably way worse and affects way more people. You need to come out and full-throatedly condemn Trump's bad behavior or you shouldn't comment on all the other stuff.
What's that you always say? We can choose to discuss one thing without addressing all that other shit?
I join you, with all my heart, in saying that the Black Israelites shouldn't have been yelling stuff at the boys, and I join you in condemning anyone who would send death threats to the boys or wish terrible fates on them. But I ain't going to say what the boys were doing was fine and give a pass to the chaperones. I don't think the stuff the Black Israelites were doing in any way excuses or mitigates what the boys were doing in any way. Because here's the thing -- I'm not sure we can expect much in the way of polite kind behavior from random guys screaming on street-corners. I WOULD think we could expect it from a group of chaperoned Catholic teenagers on a school-sponsored trip.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 14:10:55 GMT -5
I'm with Father Beck...
ETA:
Excellent. Some Catholic priests are stepping up. Another:
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Post by celawson on Jan 22, 2019 14:29:36 GMT -5
I haven't once said we have to condemn any of the other groups. You talked about BHI more than I, because I have hardly mentioned them. You asked how the BHI group justifies anything, and I simply said the chaperone stated the boys wanted to cheer to drown out the insults.
My main point is that I don't think we would be having this discussion at all, if the initial response to the boys was what you said in other posts - that the boys were in some instances acting like immature and obnoxious teenagers, and so use this as a teachable moment. It's part of growing up. That's what should have been done. No social media anything. No demonizing. Teach. Implore them to be better. End of story.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 14:33:57 GMT -5
The boys were not cheering to drown out the Black Israelite's insults. And even if they were, that had squat to do with what they were doing with the Native American elder. Watch the videos where they are closer to the boys as well as the ones further away. That take does not hold up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 14:43:44 GMT -5
This'll teach those boys that they shouldn't mock Native Americans and be rude to their elders!
The Black Israelites are not becoming heroes of the left. These jerky boys, on the other hand, are being celebrated by the right. Teh poor wittle boys didn't do anything wrong -- it was just teh meanie mcmeanie Fake Media. And again -- I have no problem with Rob, Prozyan, etc.,'s take that this incident got blown out of proportion (there is some evidence, btw, that the Russian troll factories have been doing their best to ratchet up the controversy). But turning the kids into heroes or poor, innocent victims -- no. No, I have a problem with that.
I'm glad a handful of priests are speaking up, anyway.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 22, 2019 15:16:24 GMT -5
I'm wondering, Rob -- did you watch the full hour long tape, and also the other tapes from different perspectives, including the ones right up close to the kids? I'm asking that question of all of you. Or are you taking somebody's word for what they do and don't show? If the bone of contention here was rudeness to the Black Israelites, your point might be valid. Since what is contentious is the kid's behavior to the Native American elder and his group, it's a fail. The Black Israelites were proselytizing in front of the Lincoln Memorial. That's a yuuuuuge area. The area where the kids were supposed to catch the bus was down the street a block away. Those kids had exactly the same choice I face every time I see the Black Israelites and assorted other groups preaching on street corners: stand around listening, interacting with them, or walking away. I choose walking away every time, because that's what you do when you have an extremist group proselytizing on the street. The Black Israelites didn't go up to the kids and start harassing them. They didn't pursue them to the bus stop. The kids chose to stand there. They not only chose to stand there listening -- but in fact, they went beyond that. They started yelling stuff and jumping down and tearing off their shirts and doing mocking routines. That's how it escalated. The chaperones could have pulled them to some other area and the whole thing would have ended. They didn't. Again, the Native Americans did NOT call the kids crackers, etc. Again, how the fuck do the Black Israelites have shit to do with how the kids behaved towards the Native Americans? You want me to say extremists on street corners yelling shit is rude? Fine. Done. They are. The Black Israelites, the Westboro Baptists, the many other factions I see on a daily fucking basis in Times Square -- they are all rude as fuck. Am I therefore entitled to be rude to everyone else I see, because I see all these rude extremists every day? Do I get extra permission to be obnoxious to third parties if I chose to stand around listening and interacting with the rude extremists? Of course I don't condone death threats, not towards anyone, and especially not towards kids. I join heartily in condemnation of those people. Indeed, I gave hell to a facebook friend who was hoping the kids got "prison fucked." (He has since deleted that post, and yes, it was because I gave him what for.) But again, does the fact that some kooks out there behaved badly to the kids after the fact somehow retroactively justify the kids whooping up jeering Native American chants? I don't have a problem condemning the Black Israelites or the death threat trolls, at all. Agree. It's bad. I DO have a problem with saying the kids' behavior was fine and harmless, or somehow justified. ETA: And my biggest problem of all is reserved for the Covington Catholic school adults, on several counts. First and foremost, they should have hauled the kids off to another area as soon as that situation started to escalate -- or sooner. I wouldn't let a bunch of kids I was chaperoning stand around listening to a guy screaming on the street corner. But even before that -- WTF kind of field trip is this in the first place? A bunch of boys (all boys) going to another city to protest abortion -- wearing MAGA hats? We sure as hell weren't doing shit like that at MY high school as a school event. WTF. ETA: If I heard anyone bending over backward to justify the behavior of the Black Israelites or the people issuing death threats, I'd be all over it. But I actually don't hear that at all, not from anyone who isn't a bit kooky. I DO hear serious people claiming that what the kids did was totes fine and that they are poor little victims. It isn't and they are not. Well, I haven't said the behavior of the kids was "fine and harmless." I've said--and I think the evidence bears this out--that not one group can be called blameless here, if one wants to assign blame. So people who are presenting the kids as prefect angels are waaaaay off base, imo. Still, the national reaction was what it was. The initial vid went viral, people slammed the kids out of hand, called them punks and worse, made all sorts of judgments about them--Sandmann in particular--prior to having all of the facts. And many of those people are absolutely refusing to relent. As to adults, Nathan Phillips is an adult. So are the Hebrew Israelites. Phillips didn't have to walk out in to the midst of those kids. If he doesn't do that, there's no Big Story here, is there? And the Hebrew Israelites didn't have to act the way that they did, either. Side note: A friend of mine--who I've known since college, who is a surgeon, and who is fairly liberal--put up a spiel about this criticizing the kids and Sandmann in particular for disrespecting Nathan Phillips. This was early on. People agreed with him, mostly. After all the additional info came out, someone--who is also a college friend--piped in with the right wing view (kids are angels). And he got some criticism immediately. I posted--maybe 30 minutes ago--what I've said here, that no one is blameless, that the kids did act poorly, but so did the others involved. And I noted that I didn't think it was a big thing, that it was a far cry from some other events where things got violent, like those that have involved white supremacists or antifa. Took about 10 minutes before one of his other friends said I was supporting racists and implied I was a Nazi sympathizer.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 16:37:40 GMT -5
Well, I've been told I'm just pushing an agenda and am bigoted against conservatives and Catholics. (I guess the priests who agree with me are also anti-Catholic...)
Absolutely some people opining on this have political agendas, some are truly nasty, not everyone is being intellectually honest, and a lot of people have been taking the word of some article or statement or another, or judging based on a snippet of video without seeing the parts other people find troubling.
I don't think any of that bad behavior bears on whether the teens' and chaperones' behavior was problematic.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 20:11:50 GMT -5
Yep, the kids sure did learn something from all this. They can act like jackasses on a field trip, and there will be no repurcussions (other than going to the White House and ending up on the Today Show).
Note that he doesn't think he needs to be sorry for anything at all. Sounds like he doesn't think his whooping, jeering buddies need be sorry for anything either.
Forgive me if I have a hard time feeling sorry for the kids in light of that. Or don't forgive me -- it won't change what I think.
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