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Post by robeiae on Feb 19, 2019 9:01:41 GMT -5
First, there are all of the sex scandals with priests and children. Then, there are scandals with priests and nuns (that went as far as "sexual slavery). Then, there are the claims of rampant homosexuality in the priesthood. Now, the cover has been blown clear off when it comes to priests and fatherhood. From the last: People will say that it's only a small number of priests caught up in the child abuse scandals. And I guess it's only a small number caught up in the nun-related sex scandals. And only a small number who have fathered children. The homosexuality issue is, well...possibly more significant. But all of those numbers in the first three groups are--as a matter of course--bigger than what has been reported, since not all instances of abuse or parenthood have been reported. That's a fact. How much bigger is something that is an open question, but the real numbers are bigger, nonetheless. Now, let's add in all of the other priests who have been aware of these things, to one degree or another, who have looked the other way, or--in leadership roles--have helped conceal lies and crimes. The priesthood has--in my view--completely failed the Faithful. This is, I think, obvious. The priesthood is not made up of "godly" men, is not made up of "celibate" men, by and large. And one can't help but draw the obvious conclusion here: a celibacy requirement has had a negative impact--to put it mildly--on the priesthood. Will the Pope or anyone else stand up and state the obvious, call for the only sensible step forward? |
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 19, 2019 13:03:48 GMT -5
I was raised Catholic, but I don't really consider myself Catholic anymore. A few reasons for that. Too many things I can't agree with or agree to disagree with. The way they handled and continue to handle the sexual assault scandal is a big part for me. I don't think the celibacy has a lot to do with abuse of children. I do think it plays into the parts about having children and then ignoring them.
But celibacy of priests and nuns is age old dogma. I don't know if the church is really capable of such change.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 19, 2019 13:29:18 GMT -5
It is--in my view--deeply ignorant dogma. It's never worked. It's caused problems since the establishment of the Church.
And I disagree that celibacy is unrelated to the child abuse problems; the requirement in and of itself limits the sorts of people who might choose to become priests.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 19, 2019 14:30:53 GMT -5
And I disagree that celibacy is unrelated to the child abuse problems; the requirement in and of itself limits the sorts of people who might choose to become priests. Interesting. I don't know that I agree. I think your theory is that because of the celibacy, it limits the people who will become a priest because they have to be willing to give up sex, so it increases the chances of a person who is only interested in children becoming priests. But if you removed the celibacy requirement and changed nothing else, you might get more people willing to become priests, but I don't think you'd decrease the # of people who would sexually abuse minors in it. Just the %. I think a sexually frustrated priest would be more likely to have sex with an adult when they're not supposed to. I'm open to be persuaded and I don't think that it not reducing that # is a reason not to do it. |
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Post by robeiae on Feb 19, 2019 14:48:28 GMT -5
If the percentage is decreased, the number is decreased as well, assuming the overall number of priests is held constant.
But it's not just that, it's also an issue of accepting and reporting.
You're a family man, Vince. Would you tolerate an active pedophile in your midst? Would you willingly cover up or otherwise ignore their activities? I submit that if priests were allowed to marry and have children, there would be far less toleration in the Church hierarchy, when it came to the sexual abuse of minors. Far less.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 19, 2019 14:58:16 GMT -5
Well you're idea is predicated on 2 things.
1 that the church would be pickier with applicants so they'd be more willing to weed out pedophiles. The issue there is:
1) A person applying for priesthood isn't given a form that asks to check off if they're attracted to 10 year olds.
2) It's not an institution that has a solid X amount of spots available. I don't think the church is turning people away. Their ranks are diminished. So I think this wouldn't have a great affect.
Thing 2 is fellow priests with children being less will to tolerate abuse in it's ranks.
That makes some sense, but the decisions are made at higher levels.
The problem with the church is they cover up to protect themselves. I don't think this will change that.
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Post by Don on Feb 19, 2019 20:25:25 GMT -5
On thing 2, I think rob's point is that there has been a lot of cover-up at the local level, and passing priests to other posts instead of harsher measures.
Parents generally grant a higher allegiance to their own children than to any organization they may belong to, so given that empathy would kick in, more parents in the priesthood would mean more incidents would be reported at lower levels. Their role as parents would over-ride their allegiance to the cover-up. Some of these decisions would never make it out of the parish; the senior priest would think of his own kids, pick up the phone and call the police like any normal person.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 19, 2019 21:33:53 GMT -5
Maybe. And I don't think the doubt I have in this working would be an argument not to do this, but if it's not their kids, and transferring a priest another parish would protect their kids, it would stay the same for many.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 20, 2019 9:29:55 GMT -5
I think you're not giving priests enough credit, Vince.
Regardless, I'm really saying two different things:
1) I'm suggesting that if the Catholic Church had abandoned the idea of mandatory celibacy a loooong time ago (because they've known that it didn't work for a loooong time, like one thousand years), it's leadership would never have gotten to the point where it could--as a whole--look the other way and/or cover up countless cases of child abuse by priests.
2) I'm suggesting that getting rid of the celibacy requirement now is an obvious thing to do, give the variety of sex-related scandals in the Church. Will this fix everything overnight? Absolutely not. But it's a first step. And eventually the old guard will die off and be replaced by a clergy that is actually representative of the people it ministers.
That's the real problem--in my view--with the Catholic Church: it's priests are disconnected from reality and imagine that they are somehow better than other people, partly because they are celibate (even though a lot of them actually aren't).
I'll let Jonas Nightingale bring it home:
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Post by Don on Feb 20, 2019 10:01:48 GMT -5
O. M. G. That's my absolute favorite Steve Martin movie, best religious movie evar, and in the top ten of all time. I've watched it with both atheists and religionists, and everybody gets a happy ending. They see what they want to see.
IMO, of course.
Oh, and it's currently on Amazon Prime or Netflix, I don't remember which.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 23, 2019 12:27:01 GMT -5
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Post by robeiae on Feb 26, 2019 7:20:26 GMT -5
www.cnn.com/2019/02/25/australia/cardinal-george-pell-vatican-conviction-intl/index.htmlWait a minute...as horrible as this is, as bad as it is for the Church and Pope Francis, wtf with the "secret trial"? So who knew about the trial and the verdict before today? Obviously, some people in Australia knew. But why ban media reporting? That seems...wrong. Regardless, this is a pretty heavy blow to the Church hierarchy, I think, though it has known about this for a while and I'm sure was hoping that maybe the ban would stay in place longer... as opposed to dealing with reality in an open and honest fashion, damn the consequences. But again, the Church is about the Church, it's not about God and it's not about the Faithful.
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Post by robeiae on Mar 6, 2019 15:29:37 GMT -5
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Post by Don on Mar 6, 2019 16:44:18 GMT -5
A free market in Catholicism, to combat corruption inherent in what is, for true believers, a coercive monopoly.
What an original and praiseworthy idea. Perhaps we should try this with some other monopolistic, coercive institutions.
OTOH. I'm a big supporter of celibacy for politicians. It would finally mean the end of political dynasties.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 16:50:55 GMT -5
We actually do have a way to measure whether the celibacy requirement is a factor in what seems to be a disproportionate number of pedophiles in the church (I tend to think it is, fwiw). Other faiths have pastors/priests/reverends who are permitted to marry/date. What is their rate of pedophilia? Do their leaders participate in covering up? What do the rates look like?
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