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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 15:02:43 GMT -5
Bringing a criminal liar to a hearing who admits he discussed this wirh congressional Dems like Schiff prior is NOT a shit show for the Dems? And I’m the biased one. HAHAHAHAHA. I can’t take you seriously anymore either. MAGA! You also don't have a clue how any of this stuff works. No, that's not a shit show for the Dems, c.e.. I wonder exactly when it will be that you will come to regret going this far into the tank for this crook, or if, no matter what, you will simply regard him as a political victim. At this point, after this many MAGA!!!!s there's no coming back for you, no backing away, no pretending you were never all that enthusiastic about him. And you're sitting there listening to one of his former closest cronies accuse him of things, with evidence, that should make you recoil. Instead, you're industriously digging around for some mote of dust to pin on the Democrats. It's really incredible.
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Post by markesq on Feb 27, 2019 15:12:08 GMT -5
I don't know for sure, of course, but I strongly believe that every accusation Cohen is making, Mueller has not just heard weeks/months ago, but also has corroborating evidence for. I see this as a preview of SOME of the Mueller report, delivered by a very imperfect vessel. As to Cass's point, whether Trump is "going down," I very much hope so. The issue will be whether Trump supporters decide everything Mueller has to say is a lie or "fake news." I fear we're at a point where those who have thrown their support Trump's way will never see anything except what they want to. Also, it's not lost on me that those Trump backers at the hearing, and here, have essentially two talking points for Cohen: "You're a liar, and you're lying to profit from it." That's how they're defending the most mendacious president ever (indisputable, surely?!) and a total grifter. Again, echoing prior discussions here, does Trump's history of lying have any relevance to the veracity of what Michal Cohen is saying about him? Well, echoing prior explanations of why we raise it: it's hard to take seriously the repub outrage at someone lying, when they support an even worse liar.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 15:15:52 GMT -5
Again, echoing prior discussions here, does Trump's history of lying have any relevance to the veracity of what Michal Cohen is saying about him? Well, echoing prior explanations of why we raise it: it's hard to take seriously the repub outrage at someone lying, when they support an even worse liar. I agree, though I'd say it's "impossible," rather than "hard."
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Post by celawson on Feb 27, 2019 15:25:21 GMT -5
Good God, people -- it's not Republican outrage at the act of lying, it's trying to get truth about Trump and illegal acts, and how a criminal liar is not, maybe, the best way to get truth. It's not that hard to comprehend. Which, again, makes someone's support for Trump irrelevant.
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Post by markesq on Feb 27, 2019 15:32:24 GMT -5
Good God, people -- it's not Republican outrage at the act of lying, it's trying to get truth about Trump and illegal acts, and how a criminal liar is not, maybe, the best way to get truth. It's not that hard to comprehend. Which, again, makes someone's support for Trump irrelevant. No, it's not that hard but you (and they) are plainly not trying to get to the truth. You know how we know? They haven't asked any substantive questions about who knew what, or when. Why? Because they don't care. They don't want to know. All they want to do is smear Cohen (not hard, I admit) and discredit what he says. Show me where they've pushed him for substantive answers on actual events.
Also, I would note that the guy they are painting as a crook and a liar (and he's both, sure) didn't become one overnight. This crook and liar was Trump's personal fixer and lawyer. Do you really expect any reasonable person to believe that Trump had no idea how crooked he was? More specifically, I would argue thatthat he hired Cohen precisely because he'd do crooked things for Trump, things that Trump didn't want to do himself.
celawson, this crooked mo-fo Michael Cohen was Trump's main man. So either Trump was the dumbest shit on the planet having no idea his lawyer was a crook, or he knew and liked it that way. Which is it?
ETA: on the issue of Cohen being dodgy his whole career, inclduing when he worked for Trump, Trump's own camaign are saying, in part: "Cohen’s wide array of crimes were ‘marked by a pattern of deception that permeated his professional life’."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 15:36:44 GMT -5
Tell me, ce, how do you think top crime syndicate figures are uncovered and brought down?
It's via lower criminals in their syndicate. There is nothing new about this, nothing unusual.* It's a matter of assessing credibility. We have some very specific statements here, backed by documentation. With Trump, we have lots of vague denials and insults, many of which have been contradicted by later evidence.
It's not that Cohen is a saint. He's not. But here, he's infinitely more credible. To be sure, that doesn't say much for Trump.
Why don't you tell us which of his allegations you find unbelievable, and why you find them so?
ETA:
Well, okay, it's unusual that the head of the crime syndicate is our president.
But seriously. Can you really, truly assert that you think Trump has clean hands? That he didn't do any of the stuff Cohen said? That this is purely political persecution of an innocent godly man who didn't do anything wrong? Really?
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Post by celawson on Feb 27, 2019 15:47:42 GMT -5
Good God, people -- it's not Republican outrage at the act of lying, it's trying to get truth about Trump and illegal acts, and how a criminal liar is not, maybe, the best way to get truth. It's not that hard to comprehend. Which, again, makes someone's support for Trump irrelevant. No, it's not that hard but you (and they) are plainly not trying to get to the truth. You know how we know? They haven't asked any substantive questions about who knew what, or when. Why? Because they don't care. They don't want to know. All they want to do is smear Cohen (not hard, I admit) and discredit what he says. Show me where they've pushed him for substantive answers on actual events.
Also, I would note that the guy they are painting as a crook and a liar (and he's both, sure) didn't become one overnight. This crook and liar was Trump's personal fixer and lawyer. Do you really expect any reasonable person to believe that Trump had no idea how crooked he was? More specifically, I would argue thatthat he hired Cohen precisely because he'd do crooked things for Trump, things that Trump didn't want to do himself.
celawson, this crooked mo-fo Michael Cohen was Trump's main man. So either Trump was the dumbest shit on the planet having no idea his lawyer was a crook, or he knew and liked it that way. Which is it?
ETA: on the issue of Cohen being dodgy his whole career, inclduing when he worked for Trump, Trump's own camaign are saying, in part: "Cohen’s wide array of crimes were ‘marked by a pattern of deception that permeated his professional life’."
I think Trump knew his lawyer would go to certain lengths for him, sure. And likely unseemly stuff of course. But did he know just how crooked Cohen was? I don't think so. I doubt Cohen informed Trump of all of his tax fraud and such. And does this mean Trump wanted Cohen to help him with seriously illegal actions? Or are we talking stuff like stupid hush money and Stormy Daniels?
I keep waiting for serious illegal stuff to come to light. It's been a long time. I haven't seen that . And this hearing with Cohen hurling insults and accusations about private conversations with Trump meant to embarrass him or his family is not the legal seriousness I was looking for.
Which questions by Dems illustrated evidence Cohen has that is serious enough to get Trump in legal trouble?
OK I'm heading to work. (You know, busy, busy, busy....)
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 27, 2019 15:48:25 GMT -5
Bringing a criminal liar to a hearing who admits he discussed this wirh congressional Dems like Schiff prior is NOT a shit show for the Dems? And I’m the biased one. HAHAHAHAHA. I can’t take you seriously anymore either. MAGA!MAGA? What's that stand for? Help a brutha out here.
Make America Greedy Again?
Morons Are Governing America?
Millionaire Asshole Golfing Again?
Mueller Ain't Going Away?
If you're not a MAGA Zombie, stop acting like one, celawson. You're smarter than that. You're supposed to be a conservative. Act like one and stop acting like a Faux and Friends host. You KNOW this guy is not a great president. You KNOW he is alienating allies and befriending enemies. You KNOW he plays to the worst instincts of people, traffics in fear, sows division, and LIES.
If you don't know by now, you should.
God, how this man, lies. He lies like most people breathe. He lies even when the truth works better. If I could change one thing about Trump it would be to just stop all the goddamned lying. I don't understand how people like you whom are supposedly intelligent and critically thinking and can see through a politician blowing smoke, yet deny the ample evidence that Donald Trump is a deliberate, purposeful, and unrepentant liar. The only difference between Cohen's lies and Trump's is one is a convicted one and the other is under investigation for being one.
That "criminal liar" was President Pussygrabber's personal attorney for a decade. His job was to pay off Trump's booty calls and to get them to sign off on NDA's so they wouldn't talk about his mushroom micropenis.
That "criminal liar" brought receipts of how Trump paid him back.
That "criminal liar" proved he took out a personal loan for a client because that client didn't want his name on those booty call checks.
That "criminal law" produced documents that showed how Trump directed him to threaten any educational institution that revealed any information about his school grades.
That "criminal liar" says he put the bug in Trump's ear to run for president in 2011. That "criminal liar" explained Trump was never trying to make America great.
Donald Trump is a man who ran for office to make his brand great, not to make our country great. He had no desire or intention to lead this nation –only to market himself and to build his wealth and power. Mr. Trump would often say, this campaign was going to be the “greatest infomercial in political history.” He never expected to win the primary. He never expected to win the general election. The campaign –for him –was always a marketing opportunity.
That "criminal liar" may have proven what I already knew and Barack Obama tried to warn us. Trump is unfit for the office he holds. Now all that remains to be determined if he's an agent for a foreign power.
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Post by celawson on Feb 27, 2019 15:57:12 GMT -5
Hi, NT.
I just saw your post, I have to run to work. But I will say this:
I'm posting MAGA only to bug Cass and Mark. Yes, I'm trolling. If you'd been called a hypocrite as many times, you might put something at the end of your posts, too.
I know Trump lies, and I know he has affairs, but I haven't seen any evidence thus far of serious illegal wrongdoing that makes me concerned about our country. I don't give a rat's behind about his personal life and affairs. That's his and Melania's private business. What I am concerned about is our country, and Trump has done very much that I agree with here, and to me, that's much more important than his marital infidelity or that he uses tax loopholes in his business like any other billionaire out there.
As I've said before, if serious legal wrongdoings come to light, I'm not going to deny them. But thus far? It's all a game by Trump haters to take him down any way they can. Even if it's embarrassing him to death with the likes of Michael Cohen and a public congressional hearing.
So let's wait and see what comes of this. I think much less will come of this than you here are hoping for.
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Post by markesq on Feb 27, 2019 16:02:25 GMT -5
So let me ask this: what has Trump achieved that has been good for the country? I'm genuinely curious.
Also, do you not care that he lies to the American people every day? Multiple times a day? Does character mean absolutely nothing any more? And even if it doesn't how do you trust a president who lies ALL THE TIME? How on earth can you put faith in a man like that?
I guess you represent what conservatism has become: don't care about morality, don't care about character, don't care about fiscal responsibility, just get me the results I want. Don't you want a president you can be proud of?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 16:34:43 GMT -5
I'm posting MAGA only to bug Cass and Mark. Yes, I'm trolling. If you'd been called a hypocrite as many times, you might put something at the end of your posts, too. It doesn't bug me. I just think it's pathetic. ETA: Doubly so since you are so constantly telling people that they are being "childish" or acting like they are in junior high school.
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Post by celawson on Feb 27, 2019 16:51:41 GMT -5
I’m parking at work. The list of good stuff is pretty long - In no order of importance - - backing out of Paris Climate - same with Iran Deal - increased Russia sanctions - uS embassy in Jerusalem - clamping down on Obama era over-regulation - tax cuts - addressing China in the global market - dealing with North Korea - judicial appointments - good rhetoric against the awful expansion of abortion laws - adding more guts to our presence in the U.N. - being bold enough to tell NATO how it is - genuine attempts at immigration reform from countries overseas - genuine attempt to protectt our southern border - emphasis on VA reform
- ISIS -Title 9 reform - supporting our military - space force - supporting our Border Patrol and ICE agents
All of those are way more important than an affair and hush money to Stormy. Gotta run
MAGA!
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Post by robeiae on Feb 27, 2019 16:56:38 GMT -5
*yawn*
I've watched a bit of the hearings, as much as I can stand.
Here's my point of view: I'm not really learning much of anything I didn't know/suspect before Cohen's testimony. And I include in this all of Cohen's personal takes on Trump.
Trump is an egomaniacal narcissist, a grifter, a sleazebag, a womanizer (and then some), a guy who uses lawyers and the legal system to not only get over on others but to also cover his own ass. That's what he was when he ran for President and before. That's what he still is today. But people (Repubs) willingly voted for him to be the nominee, then willingly voted for him to be President. They either didn't care about the above stuff, were willfully blind to it, or told themselves he was still better than Clinton, imo. Elections still have consequences, though. Trump is the rightful President and I think will continue to be such until the next election, when he may very well lose.
How many breathless oh-my-god-Trump-is-in-real-trouble-now moments have there been since the election (and a little before, really)? Seriously, because I've lost count.
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Post by markesq on Feb 27, 2019 17:01:15 GMT -5
This is a pretty good summary of today's events. It presents two areas of potential trouble for Trump: 1. his direct knowledge of, and involvement in, Russian meddling in the elections, and 2. his direct involvement in campaign finance violations. I agree with Rob, I guess, in the sense that today won't bring about any great shifts in the landscape. I differ in that all those OMG moments should have sent Repubs running in the opposite direction from Trump, many moons ago and many times. The fact they didn't, well, that's on them not Trump I guess. As you said, those that voted for him got the man they voted for.
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Post by celawson on Feb 27, 2019 17:06:07 GMT -5
How can you run from a duly elected POTUS who is not impeachable and who is enacting an agenda that is good for the most part? I mean, do we want this country to do well during Trump or not? Or are you willing to hurt the U.S. because Trump triggers you?
Example: holding this shit show hearing while POTUS is in Vietnam is absolutely undermining the U.S. But hey, the Dems are triggered by Trump, so that’s ok I guess.
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