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Post by robeiae on Jun 20, 2020 19:52:23 GMT -5
Trump is an idiot par excellance. That whole pep rally was just so stupid.
But in my mind--and I may have said this earlier in this thread, on twitter, or on FB, I don't remember--a large portion of our population was always going to eventually contract the virus. That's what I thought the official line was from the CDC and elsewhere in the beginning. Try to minimize risk to the vulnerable--once we knew who that was--and try to make sure the system didn't get overwhelmed, those were what I thought the goals were. The idea that the entire country could be locked down indefinitely was never feasible. Honestly, I'm kinda surprised that so many places did that for as long as they did. Because there are still a ton of people in desperate straits from the lockdown. Some are seeing a bit of relief from the gradual reopenings. BUt it's unfortunate that there are so many people who won't stick to the guidelines that remain in place, even with the reopenings. That's ultimately on them, imo. They're idiots and are endangering others. And the protesters...well, I can understand and support some of their causes, but their actions are just as imperiling as the idiots who won't wear masks in Walmart. Maybe even more imperiling, given the fact that the protests tend to be in major urban centers.
It's tough to know what's around the corner right now.
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Post by Optimus on Jun 20, 2020 20:50:18 GMT -5
If Trump had any sense, he would protect his supporters by calling his "rally" a "protest", as protest are much safer. (Just an observation) I mean...
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Post by Optimus on Jun 20, 2020 20:59:35 GMT -5
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Post by robeiae on Jun 21, 2020 7:38:18 GMT -5
Lol, he's kinda parroting me. Clearly, I have DeSantis' ear...
But regardless of how one sees the situation in Florida, I think it's good that DeSantis is able to publicly acknowledge when he was off base. Trump sure as hell can't do that.
But this was maybe an unnecessary shot:
Though I guess one might argue that Cuomo and others have taken their own fair share of unnecessary shots.
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Post by Optimus on Jun 22, 2020 23:51:15 GMT -5
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Post by markesq on Jun 23, 2020 11:04:44 GMT -5
Texas is starting to go to hell around me, as well. I've always been a pessimist about the virus, but I can afford to be: my wife and I can work from home, each kid has their own bedroom, as well as a shared gameroom. They're a little mad we won't let them socialize with their friends yet, but looking at the numbers I think in the long run my pessimism will prove to have been a good thing.
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Post by Vince524 on Jun 26, 2020 21:15:49 GMT -5
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Post by robeiae on Jun 27, 2020 8:50:12 GMT -5
So ignorant.
In my zealous defenses of Florida, one thing that I'll admit I sometimes forget is that South Florida--especially Miami-Dade--is quite different than the rest of the State. I know there are a lot of stories out there talking about all the new cases in Florida (not so many stories about the new cases in California, however) and it's worrisome to me, personally. Yet, on the ground in Miami I'm not seeing much. Everything has been tooling along at about 1/3 speed for several weeks now. Most everyone is wearing masks (aside from the uber-obnoxious South Beach crowd), most everyone is avoiding contact with older people (or staying home if they are older). In my mind, that's the right approach. So my worries are mitigated by what I'm seeing.
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Post by Optimus on Jun 27, 2020 15:41:07 GMT -5
So ignorant. In my zealous defenses of Florida, one thing that I'll admit I sometimes forget is that South Florida--especially Miami-Dade--is quite different than the rest of the State. Agreed. I lived in West Florida for several years, and traveled all over Florida during that time, which is why I was confident that your overconfidence was sorely misplaced. Could be because with 18 million fewer people than California, Florida's recent surge has been measurably larger (e.g., peak of a little over 7,000 one day this week for California, then back down to between 5,000 to 6,000, whereas Florida has hit 9000+ two or three days in a row and it seems to be rising). "I'm not poor, therefore poverty doesn't exist."
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Post by robeiae on Jun 27, 2020 17:16:39 GMT -5
Nah. Because the flip side is still the economic impact. My friends in Florida who are the most distressed about Covid-19 are also the ones who have the resources and/or careers to stay home for an extended time frame.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 28, 2020 8:29:31 GMT -5
I've been thinking about how people respond to the threat of Covid-19 and it seems to me that there are some core issues which vary significantly from person to person, when it comes to precautions and policies: 1) The basic issue of health, the importance of protecting people from a potentially fatal virus. 2) The economic costs of precautions, from the individual level to the national level. 3) The issue of freedom with respect to government policy. - Whether or not things like wearing masks can be mandated.
- Whether or not public gatherings can be limited or even allowed.
- Whether or not private activities are subject to government controls (including religious ones).
I am concerned about all of these things, personally, but right now it's the first two that drive my point of view. As I said before, I think there has to be a balance in the response. But it seems to me that the third issue is driving a lot of opinions, above and beyond the first two. And the government--at each level--has been terribly inconsistent in both policy and explanation. Much of that is on Trump's admin, to be sure, but it's not much better at State and local levels.
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Post by mikey on Jun 28, 2020 9:46:06 GMT -5
I've been thinking about how people respond to the threat of Covid-19 and it seems to me that there are some core issues which vary significantly from person to person, when it comes to precautions and policies: 1) The basic issue of health, the importance of protecting people from a potentially fatal virus. 2) The economic costs of precautions, from the individual level to the national level. 3) The issue of freedom with respect to government policy. - Whether or not things like wearing masks can be mandated.
- Whether or not public gatherings can be limited or even allowed.
- Whether or not private activities are subject to government controls (including religious ones).
I am concerned about all of these things, personally, but right now it's the first two that drive my point of view. As I said before, I think there has to be a balance in the response. But it seems to me that the third issue is driving a lot of opinions, above and beyond the first two. And the government--at each level--has been terribly inconsistent in both policy and explanation. Much of that is on Trump's admin, to be sure, but it's not much better at State and local levels. For me, I fall in the number 3 part of your equation.
Whats more of a driving force for me is the whole trust the governments word on anything. After mushroom clouds, mobile weapons labs, bad guys, pee tapes, Russian collusion, don't wear mask, wear any mask as long as it's not an n95, (because n95s work and we need the for a better class of people than you).
Frankly, I don't believe a word coming out of the government or the media's mouth. YMMV.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 28, 2020 20:18:49 GMT -5
I've been thinking about how people respond to the threat of Covid-19 and it seems to me that there are some core issues which vary significantly from person to person, when it comes to precautions and policies: 1) The basic issue of health, the importance of protecting people from a potentially fatal virus. 2) The economic costs of precautions, from the individual level to the national level. 3) The issue of freedom with respect to government policy It seems to me that if the economic cost of precautions is something to be looked at, then the economic cost of not taking precautions would need to be looked at as well, for comparison. Some background here: I've been watching this whole situation unfold from Vietnam, where the response--not just from the government but from the general populace--seems to have been quite different from the US (although to be fair, I'm obviously watching the US from the outside looking in, at the moment). We had a period of slightly under 4 weeks which I would rate as fairly tough to get through, where most businesses were closed: restaurants, bars, shopping malls, gyms, barbershops, etc. Only a few essential places were left open (grocery stores, pharmacies, etc.) As I said, it was tough, but after the re-opening, things got back to normal pretty quickly. By this point, you wouldn't even know there was a pandemic, save for following the news in other countries (and maybe noticing the slight increase in mask-wearing). A lot of people seem to think the Vietnamese government was highly focused on bullet point #1, the basic health issue. And to some extent, that was definitely the case. But looking back, I also think it's pretty clear that they were able to limit the long-term damage to their economy, by putting in place the precautions they did. Probably the only major industry that hasn't been able to get back to normal is tourism, due to the borders still being closed. (Although even there, things are picking up a bit because there's been more focus on domestic tourism.) But, despite the temporary downturn, Vietnam very likely saved its tourism industry in the long-run, again because of the precautions they put in place. Because once people start traveling again and the industry starts inching toward normality, it's the countries that don't have a virus problem that are going to benefit the most. (As a side note, I read recently that Sicily wants to offer people free flights and free hotel rooms, to try to get people to visit soon. That probably says a lot about the perceived virus effect. They realize now that people aren't going to flock naturally to Sicily, the way they did previously. And that's despite the fact that Sicily hasn't even had that many virus deaths.) So, when I look at the issues facing the US right now, it just seems like the thinking may have been a bit too much "either/or". And unfortunately, it seems like the result of that is the US is going to pay a high price both in economic cost as well as the toll in human lives. And on top of that, even the third issue--the freedom issue--is also going to be a long-term problem, as long as politicians can point to a high death toll to justify whatever restrictions they want to put in place. The luxury of picking and choosing priorities may very well be a lost one, to a large degree. Just my thoughts, as someone who--admittedly--doesn't have the same close-up perspective as those actually living in the US right now.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 29, 2020 6:56:30 GMT -5
It seems to me that if the economic cost of precautions is something to be looked at, then the economic cost of not taking precautions would need to be looked at as well, for comparison. Absolutely. I think the US is kind of a tale of 1000 cities; everything is different when it comes to the virus response, depending on where one happens to live. The lack of a consistent, coordinated nation-wide response is what is extended issues for the US. That's partly on Trump, it's partly on governors and mayors, and it's partly on the opposition to all of the above (who are looking to score political points). And it's partly on the citizenry and the cultures within the US. It's a shame, in some respects. It would be nice in moments like this if we all just went along with what our betters were telling us. But it's never gonna happen. Indeed, the virus has fucked up the UK for the same sorts of reasons (I'm still at a loss as to why Belgium got hammered so hard).
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Post by Optimus on Jun 29, 2020 14:05:46 GMT -5
I've also noticed that the Republicans in the US have stupidly politicized this issue, turning it into just another weapon to try to cudgel the Dems with. It's a completely different mentality than what we have up here in Canada. The conservative Premiers, most of whom strongly oppose Trudeau and the Liberals, have pretty much all strongly supported the Trudeau government's approach to this and have presented a nationwide united effort against COVID-19.
Even Doug Ford, who is somewhat Trumpian in his brash conservatism, has been all over this from nearly the start, implementing lockdowns, encouraging masks, etc.
Threats to public health and safety aren't usually weaponized political issues up here, as it should be for anyone who's not a shit-for-brains troglodyte.
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