|
Post by Optimus on Dec 11, 2016 3:07:51 GMT -5
Both leading up to the election and since it has happened, I've read a lot of stories, blogs, message board posts, etc. about the false narratives that Trump and the Republicans used to "trick" many working class whites (the possibly gullible but non-racist ones, in this case) into voting for Trump. However, I've seen very few, if any, stories about the false narratives that the left peddles to whip its base up into a frenzy. There are several examples I could give, but one of the major ones I saw pushed during this election is the wage gap myth. To be clear, there is a wage gap (albeit relatively small), but the myth is often in how the gap is articulated. It's usually presented that women make 77 cents to every dollar that a man makes "for the same job." And, the implication (sometimes it's outright stated) is that this "23% gap" is due primarily to overt and/or systematic sexism. These are outright lies. Even the "women make 77% of what men make" number is false because, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, it's actually 83%.
In reality, though, depending on what variables and covariates are controlled for, and how wages are calculated, the actual "gap" is roughly only about 5% to 10%, not the 23% that the Dems continue to claim. The "77% of what men earn" figure is the result of taking all men and women workers of all occupations and lumping them all together, then calculating the average yearly earnings for each sex, totally ignoring such things such as differences in jobs, industries, tenure, education levels, lifestyle choices, and hours worked.
www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.htmlwww.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/14/on-equal-pay-day-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-gender-pay-gap/www.wsj.com/articles/the-wage-gap-myth-that-wont-die-1443654408Again, just to be clear, there is a gap, and a small portion of it very well may be due to sexism. This sexism needs to be rooted out and eliminated where it exists. But the actual wage gap (including its actual size and contributing factors) is grossly distorted and misrepresented in order to push a particular political agenda. It's just as much a manipulative appeal to emotion as anything the Repubs do when they talk about jobs leaving the country or illegal immigrants taking over and raping and pillaging. So, my question is why is there so much pearl-clutching and outrage when Repubs lie to their constituents to manipulate their vote, but it's pretty much ignored when Dems do it? Is it because the Regressive Left has grown larger than I realized, or do Dem leaders really lack that level of self-awareness and ability to fact-check? Is this a case of Dems being intentionally dishonest for votes or is it really only a case of harmless exaggeration?
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Dec 11, 2016 8:17:52 GMT -5
So, my question is why is there so much pearl-clutching and outrage when Repubs lie to their constituents to manipulate their vote, but it's pretty much ignored when Dems do it? Is it because the Regressive Left has grown larger than I realized, or do Dem leaders really lack that level of self-awareness and ability to fact-check? Is this a case of Dems being intentionally dishonest for votes or is it really only a case of harmless exaggeration? Well, I brought up a "fact" cited by Clinton's comm director in an op-ed (that is supposedly about how she can be a gracious loser) here. That "fact," again: "Clinton got more votes than any white man in history." That is certainly true. But it's entirely meaningless as a "point," as I showed in the other thread. Yet here's a major figure in the Clinton campaign putting it in an op-ed in order to defend Clinton and criticize Trump. She's obviously--imo--counting on a huge chunk of the party faithful being head-wagging idiots. They'll take that "fact" and run with it. Google "Clinton got more votes than any white man in history" in quotes and you'll get over 6 million hits. So my vote is for dishonesty, coupled with the expectation that many of the party faithful are bleating sheep. True for the Repubs, as well. If anything, the Repubs probably have the dumber sheep, though the Dems have the bigger herd.
|
|
|
Post by Christine on Dec 11, 2016 8:36:50 GMT -5
So, my question is why is there so much pearl-clutching and outrage when Repubs lie to their constituents to manipulate their vote, but it's pretty much ignored when Dems do it? Is it because the Regressive Left has grown larger than I realized, or do Dem leaders really lack that level of self-awareness and ability to fact-check? Is this a case of Dems being intentionally dishonest for votes or is it really only a case of harmless exaggeration? The pearl-clutching and outrage when Repubs lie is by Dems. There's an equal amount of pearl clutching and outrage when Dems lie by Repubs. Surely you don't expect these people to be outraged at themselves? I can only assume it seems like more outrage on the Dem side because mainstream media slants liberal, and maybe you live in a liberal area. Get thee to a conservative website. Or come hang out with my family sometime. They are usually knee-deep in outrage at Dems by noon.
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Dec 11, 2016 12:10:36 GMT -5
The pearl-clutching and outrage when Repubs lie is by Dems. There's an equal amount of pearl clutching and outrage when Dems lie by Repubs. Surely you don't expect these people to be outraged at themselves? Yeah, actually, I can be outraged when anyone lies. Including (especially) "my side." As for Opty's question, it's dishonesty plus most people are bad at math (especially statistics) plus most people like simple, soundbite arguments. I have seen that "77%" argument repeated for years as if it were some sort of universal law - there are people who seem to honestly believe that a lot of companies, as a standard practice, will hire men and women for the exact same job title and automatically pay the women less.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 12:39:36 GMT -5
Yeah, actually, I can be outraged when anyone lies. Including (especially) "my side." Yep. And As for Opty's question, it's dishonesty plus most people are bad at math (especially statistics) plus most people like simple, soundbite arguments. Yep. Both sides do it; one's perception of who does it more or worse is at least partly a reflection of one's own views (it's easier to spot a lie or distortion when it doesn't confirm your own biases), and as Christine noted above, where you live and what news sources you're listening to. I live in NYC, where the liberal distortions flourish and the alt-right ones are immediately shot down and scorned. But when I talk to my Trump-supporting brother across the state, I discover he's living in a different experience altogether. It's interesting. I hate it, but it's interesting. Increasingly, I think it's a good idea to regard most news (and "news") sources with at least some cynicism, and to at least consider that there may be some slanting and taking out of context. And I think we should all consider fighting distortions on our own "side" as well as on our "opponents'" "side." I'd love to see more people on the "side" of truth, even if we don't love what that truth is. Call me an pollyanna idealist. And stop laughing. ETA: My own perception was that during this election season, the distortions and spin coming from the right were more prevalent and had a larger impact. But then again, I'm well aware that most of the sources I follow and the people I know are more likely to point out distortions and spin coming from the right than they are that coming from the left. And I do see plenty on the left, too.
|
|
|
Post by celawson on Dec 11, 2016 14:59:51 GMT -5
I'm very curious to hear what the left sees as outright easily provable lies by the right.
I realize I'm partisan, but I can think of plenty of outright lies by the left --
-The women's pay issue as brought up by Opty is a big one I hear repeated often of course
-that Bush lied about WMD
-that all Republicans are racist, homophobic, sexist, greedy
-that the fetus or embryo is no different than a lump of tissue or a toenail
-the Rolling Stone article on campus rape at the Univ of VA.
-that the Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson was racist and not justified
-that Castro was good for Cuba
-that complete sexual freedom or indulging in one's whims with regards to sex has no consequences
-that the U.S. is a terrible country for racism and sexism.
My take is that the left lies because their agenda and goals are of more value to them than truth -- i.e. the ends justify the means, even if the means are dishonest.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 15:14:18 GMT -5
I'll come back later, c.e., since I'm on my way out the door, but I have to point out that some of the things you point out as "lies" are in fact opinion or your characterization.
The Michael Brown thing, for example. My own opinion, after looking through the huge pile of evidence available on the internet, was that I at least that I could understand why the grand jury came out as it did. But I'm not quite ready to condemn as a "lie" the belief of some that the Ferguson shooting had some racial aspects and was not justified. It's an opinion. And anyone who wasn't that cop, and especially anyone who isn't aware of every last piece of evidence, can't have more than an opinion -- some better supported than others, of course.
your "complete sexual freedom or indulging in one's whims with regards to sex has no consequences" thing -- who is saying that, exactly? Never, in my life, have I heard anyone assert that. Maybe in 1969 they did, I don't know. But I live in what might be the liberal capital of the country, and never have I heard anyone assert that.
As far as distortions on the right, here's one -- that Hillary Clinton committed a criminal offense and should be locked up. She didn't. She did some things I didn't like, some I think were unwise, but she absolutely did not commit a criminal offense and it is preposterous to assert that she should be locked up. And yet seems to me we heard a lot of that -- and from our new president elect himself, not just fringe alt-righters.
I'll come back with more when I get home later. I'm betting others will pop on with some too.
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Dec 11, 2016 15:27:26 GMT -5
I'm very curious to hear what the left sees as outright easily provable lies by the right. I realize I'm partisan, but I can think of plenty of outright lies by the left -- -The women's pay issue as brought up by Opty is a big one I hear repeated often of course -that Bush lied about WMD -that all Republicans are racist, homophobic, sexist, greedy -that the fetus or embryo is no different than a lump of tissue or a toenail -the Rolling Stone article on campus rape at the Univ of VA. -that the Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson was racist and not justified -that Castro was good for Cuba -that complete sexual freedom or indulging in one's whims with regards to sex has no consequences -that the U.S. is a terrible country for racism and sexism. Most of the above statements are opinions, not facts. You may disagree with them, but that doesn't mean that people who hold the opposite opinion are lying. Also, a lot of them are straw men, at least inasmuch as you are claiming that "the Left" all believes/says those things. For example, most leftists might quibble over how good or how bad Castro was for Cuba, but no one outside of unreformed Marxist circles says he was an unmitigated positive. Likewise, what does "complete sexual freedom" mean? Not even the most hedonistic libertine will deny that sleeping around without protection will probably have consequences, or that "indulging one's whims" is always okay regardless of how it affects other people. Sure, you can scrape rants off of Tumblr about how the U.S. is a terrible country and Republicans are all Nazis, but most politically engaged and informed Leftists (who are no more uncommon than politically engaged and informed conservatives) have more nuanced views. Most leftists, in the wake of the Rolling Stone article, were dismayed and appalled at the shoddy journalism and the negative impact it had on rape reporting. And so on.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 15:58:44 GMT -5
(from my phone)
-- obama is Muslim -- obama was born in Kenya -- obama is admitting hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees (try 10,000) --trump can't release his tax returns while they're being audited --vince foster's suicide is fishy and was really foul play
More later. Many more.
|
|
|
Post by Christine on Dec 11, 2016 16:03:01 GMT -5
The pearl-clutching and outrage when Repubs lie is by Dems. There's an equal amount of pearl clutching and outrage when Dems lie by Repubs. Surely you don't expect these people to be outraged at themselves? Yeah, actually, I can be outraged when anyone lies. Including (especially) "my side." See, I knew that about you already. And Cass and several others here. You guys agree/object based on facts/non-facts, not sides. That's the way it should be, but it's as rare as hen's teeth in my experience. Not that I get out much.
|
|
|
Post by celawson on Dec 11, 2016 16:15:58 GMT -5
I'm very curious to hear what the left sees as outright easily provable lies by the right. I realize I'm partisan, but I can think of plenty of outright lies by the left -- -The women's pay issue as brought up by Opty is a big one I hear repeated often of course -that Bush lied about WMD -that all Republicans are racist, homophobic, sexist, greedy -that the fetus or embryo is no different than a lump of tissue or a toenail -the Rolling Stone article on campus rape at the Univ of VA. -that the Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson was racist and not justified -that Castro was good for Cuba -that complete sexual freedom or indulging in one's whims with regards to sex has no consequences -that the U.S. is a terrible country for racism and sexism. Most of the above statements are opinions, not facts. You may disagree with them, but that doesn't mean that people who hold the opposite opinion are lying. Also, a lot of them are straw men, at least inasmuch as you are claiming that "the Left" all believes/says those things. For example, most leftists might quibble over how good or how bad Castro was for Cuba, but no one outside of unreformed Marxist circles says he was an unmitigated positive. Likewise, what does "complete sexual freedom" mean? Not even the most hedonistic libertine will deny that sleeping around without protection will probably have consequences, or that "indulging one's whims" is always okay regardless of how it affects other people. Sure, you can scrape rants off of Tumblr about how the U.S. is a terrible country and Republicans are all Nazis, but most politically engaged and informed Leftists (who are no more uncommon than politically engaged and informed conservatives) have more nuanced views. Most leftists, in the wake of the Rolling Stone article, were dismayed and appalled at the shoddy journalism and the negative impact it had on rape reporting. And so on. Well, I think we have to, at the outset, get rid of the notion that any of us is saying EVERYONE on the left or right is lying about any one thing we discuss. We know that's not true. But these lies are prevalent enough, in the media and on various political discussion forums, and definitely in my daughter's classrooms at her university as espoused by her professors, that I think they should be discussed here. I will be back later to address your specific call-outs on my list.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 17:06:40 GMT -5
More from my phone (if you want cites, I can find 'em later)--
--illegal immigrants are collecting social security -- veterans get fewer benefits than illegal immigrants -- Clinton lost 6 billion in state department $ -- voter fraud is widespread -- murder rate is the highest it's been in 40 yrs
All of mine, I submit, are pretty easily disproved, and yet were widely believed and repeated by Republican I know. I saw a survey in which something like 40% of Republican still think Obama was born in Kenya.
Eta
Note that I did NOT claim, in this thread or ever, that those on the left don't believe and propagate plenty of bullshit. And I've called them out for it many times.
But c.e. asked what falsehoods and distortions those on the right had peddled, so I obliged. Answer is, "plenty."
Eta:
And this, of course, is why people on both left and right unite in finding me annoying. That, and my way of furtively tapping posts into my phone.
|
|
|
Post by Don on Dec 11, 2016 20:54:17 GMT -5
Hey, robeiae, while you're looking for new emoticons, we need a popcorn one. I'm gonna hold off on the partisan lies and wait until the discussion of the bipartisan lies starts. Or until Hell Freezes Over, whichever comes first.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 21:00:19 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Christine on Dec 11, 2016 21:04:55 GMT -5
Jesus was a socialist.
However, Satan is a libertarian. Hence, Don has invoked the "hell-freezes-over" rule.
=D
|
|