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Post by Vince524 on Dec 22, 2016 13:15:39 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 13:20:53 GMT -5
I have to ask a ? of Cassandra. While I get it's upsetting that someone made up this story, isn't that better than the woman was actually attacked? No, actually. Lies are pretty much never better than truth. A lie like this is particularly harmful. It has the effect of making real victims less credible to a lot of people. I admit, I now hear one of these stories with more skepticism than I did. And it has the effect of tearing our already divided country even further apart. It cast a unfair shadow on Trump supporters -- and to the extent lifted, it cast an unfair shadow on legitimate victims and liberals who decry legitimate crimes of this kind. And the girls in both cases will face charges and a lifetime stigma. If the cases were real, at least we'd know what we were up against. The offenders could be caught, punished, and held up as ugly examples, which might serve a valuable function in discouraging similar crimes and might even unite people in decrying them. Now, they will merely bicker about whether any of them occur.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 13:36:57 GMT -5
Back when I was in college, a girl in my dorm made up a story about being raped. I knew her; she was more than a little unstable. And yes, I'm certain it was a lie. Unfortunately, the guy rejected her, and it was her way of getting revenge and, I fear, attention and sympathy.
Her false accusation had a devastating effect on the young man she accused -- before news got around it was a lie, he got beat up and hounded by some of his fellow students. I'll bet many continued to believe it. He transfered to another school the next year.
She suffered, too. When the truth came out, she caught enormous flak (naturally), and wasn't able to handle it. She made a suicide attempt (unsuccessful) and dropped out of school.
Meanwhile, her story helped sow doubt on the stories of real rape victims.
While rape is horrifying, I submit that the consequences of her lie were no less horrifying. The truth (that nothing happened) was, of course, preferable all round.
I honestly cannot understand the point of the argument "isn't it better it's a lie." It is a false choice. The real choice wasn't between two rotten alternatives, but between truth and a lie.
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Post by Vince524 on Dec 22, 2016 13:58:31 GMT -5
Back when I was in college, a girl in my dorm made up a story about being raped. I knew her; she was more than a little unstable. And yes, I'm certain it was a lie. Unfortunately, the guy rejected her, and it was her way of getting revenge and, I fear, attention and sympathy. Her false accusation had a devastating effect on the young man she accused -- before news got around it was a lie, he got beat up and hounded by some of his fellow students. I'll bet many continued to believe it. He transfered to another school the next year. She suffered, too. When the truth came out, she caught enormous flak (naturally), and wasn't able to handle it. She made a suicide attempt (unsuccessful) and dropped out of school. Meanwhile, her story helped sow doubt on the stories of real rape victims. While rape is horrifying, I submit that the consequences of her lie were no less horrifying. The truth (that nothing happened) was, of course, preferable all round. I honestly cannot understand the point of the argument "isn't it better it's a lie." It is a false choice. The real choice wasn't between two rotten alternatives, but between truth and a lie. Well, A lie is worse than nothing happened at all, but a lie is better than a woman being raped.
And today, that same guy would have been kicked out of school and unable to get that expunged or reversed even if it were proven a lie afterwards.
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Post by Optimus on Dec 22, 2016 14:50:50 GMT -5
Back when I was in college, a girl in my dorm made up a story about being raped. I knew her; she was more than a little unstable. And yes, I'm certain it was a lie. Unfortunately, the guy rejected her, and it was her way of getting revenge and, I fear, attention and sympathy. Her false accusation had a devastating effect on the young man she accused -- before news got around it was a lie, he got beat up and hounded by some of his fellow students. I'll bet many continued to believe it. He transfered to another school the next year. She suffered, too. When the truth came out, she caught enormous flak (naturally), and wasn't able to handle it. She made a suicide attempt (unsuccessful) and dropped out of school. Meanwhile, her story helped sow doubt on the stories of real rape victims. While rape is horrifying, I submit that the consequences of her lie were no less horrifying. The truth (that nothing happened) was, of course, preferable all round. I honestly cannot understand the point of the argument "isn't it better it's a lie." It is a false choice. The real choice wasn't between two rotten alternatives, but between truth and a lie. Well, A lie is worse than nothing happened at all, but a lie is better than a woman being raped.
And today, that same guy would have been kicked out of school and unable to get that expunged or reversed even if it were proven a lie afterwards.
"Well, a lie is worse than nothing happened at all, but a lie is better than a woman being raped." I might be excoriated by someone for saying this but, says who? You're still setting up a false dichotomy. Going back to Cass's example, the guy got physically assaulted and was harassed so much that he had to transfer schools. What if it'd been even worse? What if some people decided to get retribution on the guy for something he didn't do, and they found him and - in typical American, "eye for an eye" fashion - they'd sodomized him to teach him a lesson? What if his family had received death threats? What if his car or home had been set on fire? All of this, taken together, could be argued to be worse and all of it from a lie. Now, going back to your original assertion that a lie is better than the Muslim woman being assaulted. This assertion could also be false. What if, the next time something like this happens for real, the victim isn't believed because of all of these false stories? That person would have been assaulted, then not believed, than may never get justice. What if lies like these further cement the prejudices of people across the country, making these types of race relations even worse? What if these prejudices foment to the point where someone actually does get assaulted in order to "teach these people a lesson" not to lie? I can imagine a lot of scenarios where the outcomes from lying about an assault would be worse than if the accusation had been true. This is not a black-or-white, yes-or-no issue. It is complex and each incident, whether real or fake, can have extreme and unforeseen consequences.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 15:02:10 GMT -5
It certainly won't be me excoriating you, because I agree.
ETA:
Another negative effect of the lies in these cases -- time and effort was spent looking into these false crimes that could have been spent going after real crimes. And maybe next time, if they are approaching such accusations with more skepticism, they won't look as hard into it, and a real scumbag could go unpunished. Let us not forget, too, the families and friends of the alleged victim, who suffered needless angst over the (false) victimization of their loved one. And the family and friends of any wrongly accused person (e.g., the boy at my college). Such a lot of wasted angst, anger, time, energy, so many unnecessary negative feelings created.
Anyway, it is a false choice. There never was an alternate reality where a terrible crime happened and you could magically undo it. That was not an option, ever. The only choice was the liar's: to lie or tell the truth.
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Post by Vince524 on Dec 22, 2016 15:12:41 GMT -5
I get what you're saying and the consequences can be bad, but if you heard someone tell you someone you loved was say killed, then found out an hour later it was a joke (An unfunny one.) and your loved one is alive, you'd be relieved. It wouldn't be just dandy cause it all turned out ok, but in the long run, yeah, you'd rather it was a lie. I imagine people often want to think things like this are a lie. I wasn't calling Cassandra out, I think it was just the verbiage that had me going hmm.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 15:19:34 GMT -5
I get what you're saying and the consequences can be bad, but if you heard someone tell you someone you loved was say killed, then found out an hour later it was a joke (An unfunny one.) and your loved one is alive, you'd be relieved. It wouldn't be just dandy cause it all turned out ok, but in the long run, yeah, you'd rather it was a lie. I imagine people often want to think things like this are a lie. I wasn't calling Cassandra out, I think it was just the verbiage that had me going hmm.O Perhaps, if it happened an hour later, and no one was falsely accused of murdering them. But would I think it a "relief" if my loved one had deliberately set out to fake his death to throw blame on an innocent person or to pull off a massive fraud that took money from innocent people? If the police had spent days or weeks fruitlessly looking into it? If others had suffered as a result of his act? If the community had risen in outrage and demonstrated against some ethnic group, political faction or religion they felt was responsible for the death?) If, when my loved one turned up alive, he was hauled off to jail for his crime? Yeah, maybe not so much. Instead of a tragedy that left a loving memory, I'd have a living loved one who was in jail for doing something despicable.
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Post by Optimus on Dec 22, 2016 15:33:09 GMT -5
I get what you're saying and the consequences can be bad, but if you heard someone tell you someone you loved was say killed, then found out an hour later it was a joke (An unfunny one.) and your loved one is alive, you'd be relieved. It wouldn't be just dandy cause it all turned out ok, but in the long run, yeah, you'd rather it was a lie. I imagine people often want to think things like this are a lie. I wasn't calling Cassandra out, I think it was just the verbiage that had me going hmm. Yes, but you keep moving the goal posts and changing the context of the scenario. First, the scenario was assault, and examples were shown where the lie could be just as bad (if not worse) than if it had happened. Then you shifted to rape, and the same examples were shown. Now, you've switched it to murder/death. There's an inconsistency to your argument which is why it is a bit difficult debate it. Yes, if I were told that a close family member were killed, and then I found out later that they were alive and had lied about the whole thing, then yes I would be glad they were still alive. However, what if their lie had led to thousand if not millions of wasted tax-payer dollars to search for a killer who didn't exist, and then suspects had been wrongly accused, and then those suspects had been attacked or killed out of retribution by my redneck Kentucky cousins? Would the fact that my family member was really alive and had made the whole story up still be better than if he'd told the truth and all that money and time hadn't been wasted and another innocent person hadn't been attacked and killed? I'll reiterate that I think that these types of situations are complex and the type of false dichotomy thinking that you're suggesting can lead to very bad outcomes. We can all think of scenarios where we, personally would be glad that X didn't really happen. But we can also all imagine scenarios where lying about X happening can lead to more negative outcomes overall. It all depends on the specifics of the situation and how it plays out. Applying an "X is always better than not-X" mindset to these types of things is how a lot of extremist beliefs start. Life is complex and we need to approach it by first recognizing that complexity.
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