Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 15:20:51 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on May 1, 2017 16:49:13 GMT -5
Meh. Trump is obviously confused. But Jackson most definitely did avert civil war during the Nullification Crisis and the above analysis is a little sophomoric (graduate paper on the that topic over here...A++), insofar as slavery was the background issue, a fact which Jackson--and everyone else with a clue--understood perfectly. Tsking-tsking of this sort--by the obviously under-informed writer of the piece--is pretty weenie.
Anyway, I put Trump's remarks here in the Joe Biden/Dan Quayle pot: either simple mistakes or laughable errors, depending on one's politics.
|
|
|
Post by Don on May 1, 2017 16:59:45 GMT -5
Well, as far as I know, every other civilized nation on the face of the earth managed to abolish slavery without killing 600,000 soldiers, perhaps 200,000 civilians, and destroying the infrastructure of half the nation, so perhaps it's worth some serious consideration.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 17:09:28 GMT -5
Well, in the case of our country, half the nation pretty much ran on slave labor. The other half didn't use it at all. And there was a whole bunch of territory out there with a question mark over it. If slavery had been more evenly dispersed geographically, it might have been easier to arrive at a compromise. As it was, the wealthiest and most powerful on one half stood to lose a lot, and the wealthiest and most powerful on the other side didn't. That doesn't make for compromise. Not to mention they had a few other little differences about the direction of the country. And of all the people to suggest to broker a compromise on that issue -- slaveholder Andrew Jackson. I don't think so. Neither does this guy, who wrote a book on Andrew Jackson. www.npr.org/2017/05/01/526388034/fact-check-could-andrew-jackson-have-stopped-the-civil-war-as-trump-said
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on May 1, 2017 17:39:35 GMT -5
That book and the conclusions Inskeep is drawing in the NPR piece reflect the continued historical revisionism, when it comes to the total picture of Jackson. Yes, he was a true bastard. Yes, he was prepared to commit genocide on the Native Americans. Yes, he was a Southerner and a slave owner.
But seriously, Jackson pissed of the pro-confederacy crowd in the South with how he handled the Nullification Crisis. He recognized it as a set-up, as a "trial run" for how that crowd would dissolve the Union via secession. And he told them--more or less--that he'd hang anyone who took that road. Jackson--like fucking Lincoln--was all about preserving the Union, regardless of how the slavery question played out. Like Sherman, for that matter (who also owned slaves).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 17:51:31 GMT -5
Be that as it may, I don't think the issues were going to be resolved minus a war -- not by Lincoln, not by Jackson.
Trump, time traveler: "Nobody knew slavery could be so complicated."
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on May 1, 2017 18:37:25 GMT -5
When it comes to philosophies of history, there are a number of schools of thought--including some that don't cater to the concept at all--and I tend to fall in the " over-determined event" school, for a lot of things. The Civil War was such an event, imo. But again, Jackson specifically pissed off the Southern leadership, the states rights crowd, with how he handled the Nullification Crisis. The claim that "Jackson was a slave-holder so he couldn't possibly have done better than Lincoln" isn't supported by the evidence or by a solid argument. Jackson's capital with the South may have actually improved his ability to negotiate (assuming the Civil War jumped back decades or Jackson and his personal history jumped forwards). I would, in fact, posit that one of the following would have been the case if "Lincoln was replaced with Jackson": 1) War would have been more immediate and more brutal on the South. Indeed, some Southern leaders--like Lee--might not have made the same choices, at all. Or 2) Jackson would have done what he did in the 1830's: threatened, negotiated, and ultimately forced a deal that was a blow to the South, if not a death blow to slavery. In other words, he may have pushed back the War for a few more years.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 19:48:23 GMT -5
The best thing about this argument is that we can't possibly resolve it without a time machine and a whole lot of 'splaining to Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln.
|
|
|
Post by nighttimer on May 1, 2017 20:48:32 GMT -5
Meh. Trump is obviously confused. But Jackson most definitely did avert civil war during the Nullification Crisis and the above analysis is a little sophomoric (graduate paper on the that topic over here...A++), insofar as slavery was the background issue, a fact which Jackson--and everyone else with a clue--understood perfectly. Tsking-tsking of this sort--by the obviously under-informed writer of the piece--is pretty weenie. Generalized criticism of the analysis, but no specific rebuttal that gives any credence it is "a little sophomoric." Good for you about your graduate paper. However, barring a cogent and coherent couter-argument, that's no reason to assume author is wrong and you're right. That book and the conclusions Inskeep is drawing in the NPR piece reflect the continued historical revisionism, when it comes to the total picture of Jackson. Yes, he was a true bastard. Yes, he was prepared to commit genocide on the Native Americans. Yes, he was a Southerner and a slave owner. But seriously, Jackson pissed of the pro-confederacy crowd in the South with how he handled the Nullification Crisis. He recognized it as a set-up, as a "trial run" for how that crowd would dissolve the Union via secession. And he told them--more or less--that he'd hang anyone who took that road. Jackson-- like fucking Lincoln--was all about preserving the Union, regardless of how the slavery question played out. Like Sherman, for that matter (who also owned slaves). Where's your evidence how Jackson, a true bastard who owned over 150 slaves and never freed them "pissed of [sic] the pro-Confederacy crowd in the South?" Snarking and taking cheap shots at Bloomburg and NRP is proof of zero but your own "historical revisionism." Yes, Jackson was a Southerner and a slave owner, and you left out one other thing: he was a fucking White supremacist, unlike fucking Lincoln. Rebuttal? If you got an "A" on your grad paper, it should be easy. When it comes to philosophies of history, there are a number of schools of thought--including some that don't cater to the concept at all--and I tend to fall in the " over-determined event" school, for a lot of things. The Civil War was such an event, imo. But again, Jackson specifically pissed off the Southern leadership, the states rights crowd, with how he handled the Nullification Crisis. The claim that "Jackson was a slave-holder so he couldn't possibly have done better than Lincoln" isn't supported by the evidence or by a solid argument. Jackson's capital with the South may have actually improved his ability to negotiate (assuming the Civil War jumped back decades or Jackson and his personal history jumped forwards). I would, in fact, posit that one of the following would have been the case if "Lincoln was replaced with Jackson": 1) War would have been more immediate and more brutal on the South. Indeed, some Southern leaders--like Lee--might not have made the same choices, at all. Or 2) Jackson would have done what he did in the 1830's: threatened, negotiated, and ultimately forced a deal that was a blow to the South, if not a death blow to slavery. In other words, he may have pushed back the War for a few more years. Right. The slaveholder was going to deliver a death blow to slavery. Nothing too historically revisionist about that. But I'll play this game a bit and posit a question: If Lincoln was replaced with Jackson, would Jackson have come up with the Emancipation Proclamation? Would the guy who freed his own slaves only in death free all the slaves in life? Survey says, "NO." Jacksonian Democracy is synonmous with "Manifest Destiny," the odious philosophy of imperialism and genocide which hung on the belief America was a White man's country to be owned and controlled only by White men and if that meant eradicating Indians and enslaving Negroes, then that was what was done. All the historical revisionism can't whitewash the White supremacist legacy of Andrew Jackson that both Trump and you admire so much. Trump, I get because he's an ahistorical dope, but what's your excuse, robeiae?
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on May 2, 2017 6:01:40 GMT -5
It's good question about the Emancipation Proclamation. I don't think one can assume Jackson would have done the same, at all. He might have, if he felt he'd get a needed advantage from doing so, but barring that, I don't think so. And again, I'd argue that Jackson would have been more brutal in war from the get-go. Hell, he'd be just as likely to order his troops to kill all of the slaves held by rebelling Southerners as a means of punishing them. And again, Sherman was also a slaveowning Southerner. He had little problem putting the South to the torch. The point is, that wasn't what was driving them.
I have no illusions about who Jackson was, what he was willing to do, at all. I just think a lot of this commentary/analysis is ignoring what Jackson's actions say about his purposes, in favor of the criticizing the former, above all else.
And I criticized the first piece as "a little sophomoric" for the analysis Cass quoted, which was this:
The piece you quoted from The Nation is equally as weak--imo--when it says stuff like this:
I mean that's even worse, actually. Again, the reality is that the Nullification Crisis was partly about slavery. And the idea that in it, States' Rights were preserved is, well, silly. Jackson made it clear that preserving the Union was the most important consideration, States' Rights were taken down a notch, and the fears of Southern slave-owners were immediately exacerbated, as to the future of the institution (along with the confederacy crowd, as well).
Perhaps it's tough to process this now, but the future of the USA was hardly assured in 1830 or in 1860. Many worried that it would all come tumbling down. Many wanted it to, frankly. The nation was neither wealthy nor mighty, compared to the European powers. Jackson's actions as President make it clear--quite obviously, I think--what was driving him in this regard. Doesn't excuse him for the means he chose in some cases, nor does it make him any less of a racist. By the same token, his racism and what he did to the Native Americans can't change the reality of what he did in the Nullification Crisis, of which side he aligned himself when push was about to come to shove.
Doesn't mean Jackson would have magically averted war in place of Lincoln, nor does it mean Jackson was a master deal-maker. I don't think he was. Really, he was more of a bully in this regard, which probably explains Trump's affinity here as much as anything else.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 9:07:21 GMT -5
Jackson might have kicked the war can down the road a few more years, but likely at the expense of slaves. I wouldn't call that a win. I can't imagine the Jackson I've read about negotiating a compromise that freed slaves, given what it would have cost him and fellow slave-owners. Unfortunately, I don't think abolitionist feelings ran quite high enough in the north that southern slave-holders would have been compensated for them at going rates. (Even if they had been, I doubt southern agriculture could have been run quite so cheaply using paid labor, so I'm betting the south still would have resisted.)
What I think we could have ended up with, at best, is another compromise that preserved the Union at the expense of slaves, while tensions still simmered close to the surface. And from my standpoint (and the standpoint of modern thinking), that would not have been acceptable.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 9:19:22 GMT -5
By the way? The main thing about the story that hit me was not what kind of historical figure Jackson cut, or what he would have done given a time machine. It wasn't Trump's historical acumen or lack thereof.
It was the usual thing that never fails to astonish me with Trump: his assumption that incredibly complicated and difficult situations have relatively simple solutions, and all it takes is a big bully with big cojones to negotiate. Healthcare. Foreign policy. Getting things past Congress and the courts. Slavery.
Of course, when forced to wrangle directly with the issues, he sees it's not so easy, and marvels that no one ever saw the complexity. It's his modus operandi, and a piss-poor one for the president, especially in this day and age.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on May 2, 2017 9:20:41 GMT -5
I don't disagree. As I said, I see the Civil War as over-determined.
But here's the thing: staving off war for years--or decades, as Jackson essentially did--provides an opportunity to correct the issues. And the failure to take advantage of that opportunity would lie with the principals (i.e., slaveowners, which of course would include Jackson). So there's is a fair point/question in this, as Don noted, even if we can all agree now--with hindsight--that war was inevitable. We might be wrong, regardless. This doesn't mean Trump is making an awesome point at all. We can--I think--all agree that Trump isn't a brilliant analyst of history. But again, I find some of the responses to be just as...not awesome.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on May 2, 2017 9:23:09 GMT -5
It was the usual thing that never fails to astonish me with Trump: his assumption that incredible complicated and difficult situations have relatively simple solutions, and all it takes is a big bully with big cojones to negotiate. Well, it worked for LBJ and he's lauded for it in moment and slammed for it in the next (Civil Rights to Vietnam).
|
|
|
Post by Don on May 6, 2017 5:32:55 GMT -5
One possible scenario that parallels what happened in Brazil. Bolding mine. Discounting Garrison is a big mistake, IMO.
|
|