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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 14:20:58 GMT -5
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Post by maxinquaye on Jul 19, 2017 14:33:07 GMT -5
I feel a little dirty about what I’m going to say because it will sound like I’m defending Trump, but ending this program is actually the right thing to do. The reason why Trump ended it can be questioned, and should be questioned, and maybe it is a down-payment on a debt to the Russians.
However, it doesn’t take away from the fact that feeding weapons into this area is a very mad thing to do, particularly when there’s very real difficulties in auditing where the delivered weapons actually go.
“Moderate” is such a fluid concept that at some time or another it has included even Al Qaeda’s front in Syria, the Al-Nusra Front. I think the only group that have any kind of legitimacy in this conflict are the Kurds in the North, and not even they are angels. And Turkey, a key ally, wants to kill every last one of them.
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Post by robeiae on Jul 19, 2017 14:48:41 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 14:51:53 GMT -5
You all may be right about it being better to end the program. Trump is still a Putin puppet, though.  |
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Post by maxinquaye on Jul 19, 2017 14:58:19 GMT -5
On that we agree. Probably. Though I personally Think that Putin loathes Trump. I mean, if you're a reasonably smart authoritarian half-dictator, you would be able to see the quality of the man occupying the White House at present. If you were that person, wouldn't you personally loathe Trump too? I mean, I'm not a smart authoritarian half-dictator - I'm not a mod - and I personally loathe the man.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 15:04:42 GMT -5
I, of course, AM an authoritarian half-dictator, and I personally loathe the man.
And in all seriousness, I do agree arming factions can and has backfired bigly, so you and Rob may well be right that it is better to end the program, even if it is exactly what Putin the puppet master wants.
But I found the last few paragraphs of the article gave me pause:
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Post by maxinquaye on Jul 19, 2017 15:46:42 GMT -5
As soon as we all got involved in that mess, nothing we'd do would come for free, though. You'll have to evaluate if sensibly pulling out of the quagmire is worse than staying enmeshed in the middle of it.
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Post by robeiae on Jul 19, 2017 17:23:53 GMT -5
I'm not sure exactly when Putin became this supreme puppet master. Yes, he's a KGB-thinking, authoritarian-ruling, empire-restoring dick, but what exactly makes him a puppet master? And when has Trump ever actually served any master, aside from his own ego? Imo, Putin got over on the previous admin far better than he has on Trump so far.*
And I'm sorry but "top Obama advisers" didn't cover themselves in glory in their assessment of the Middle East, Africa, and Asia, if US actions in the last five or so years are taken as reflective of this.
* This is not a defense of Trump's foreign policy, because frankly I don't think he has a coherent one, at all. He's just as likely to do something tomorrow that pisses Putin off as he is to do something Putin might want. And ditto for our relationship with every other country.
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Post by maxinquaye on Jul 19, 2017 18:21:23 GMT -5
I don’t think Putin is a mastermind. He’s a good tactician, but a lousy strategist. He wins individual battles, but more often than not, loses a campaign. He’s gotten Russia involved in a lot of things they can’t afford to do – from Ukraine to Georgia to Syria.
But I don’t think he’s stupid. Unlike Trump, he fought to gain his position, and won. He fights to maintain his position, and seems to be winning there. He’s not dumb. And, as a not-dumb person, I’m sure he realises that Donald Trump is nobody’s meek servant.
But that’s not required. He doesn’t have to have Donald Trump as a puppet. All Putin needs is to keep the USA focused on internal strife, so that it stays out of world affairs. Then Putin, he hopes, can fill the vacuum. But of course, when Putin tries to do that… he wins battles but loses campaigns.
And internally, the Democrats will want to keep the focus on Putin. Then they can nurture a mythology that Hillary Clinton had no part in her election loss. It was all Russians. It was they who robbed her of the election, and not that she was a wretched candidate.
And this is dangerous stuff, because if they get back into power, they will want to take revenge on Russia.
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Post by robeiae on Jul 19, 2017 18:42:48 GMT -5
Nah, if (when) they get back into power, they'll forget about it all in a heartbeat.
But I don't disagree with the rest of your analysis. I agree that Putin is not dumb. And I agree that internal strife here is generally good for Putin and his ambitions. Which leads to an obvious conclusion, that is consistent with my own opinion and indeed informs it to some extent: the fixation on proving a Russia-Trump cabal is just not helpful (unless you're Putin or the like).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 19:12:11 GMT -5
...or unless, like me, you think that Trump likely had unsavory dealings with Putin or his minions, and that, if true, it could damage our nation.
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Post by maxinquaye on Jul 19, 2017 19:23:40 GMT -5
I have to admit, after seeing the attitude toward the Obama administration (and indeed Hillary Clinton for that matter) from leading Republicans for a decade, I have a difficult time mustering any sympathy for a "stop being mean to Trump, plz".
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Post by robeiae on Jul 25, 2017 14:20:36 GMT -5
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