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Post by Christine on Aug 15, 2017 20:56:11 GMT -5
Re: the violence on both sides -- there was voluntarily violent interaction from both "sides" from the footage of fighting I saw. In those what I believe were basically "pockets" of skirmishes, the people involved wanted to fight each other. Ultimately, it would have been a wash, no great harm, imo, but then a fucking Nazi had to run his car into a group of peaceful people and that is why it's not "both sides" regarding the violence. I tend to agree with most of what you said Christine, with the exception of your conclusion. The pockets of skirmishes you refer to, escalated through out the day, (actually escalating for the last 8-9 months or so.) with both sides getting angrier and angrier until a fucking Nazi lost his shit and killed and hurt people with his car. Not many people are saints, especially in crowds. Expecting everyone in a crowed to be sensible is in my opinion unrealistic. I'm sure these thoughts are not unique to me. An antifa (I assume) member was killed at this protest, who and how many will be killed at the next one? The one after that? At what point will the cops be doing the killing to regain order? I find these questions very troubling. Why do you think Heather Heyer, the woman who was killed, was antifa? She was peacefully protesting by all accounts. So were many/most of the counter-protesters. I.e., NOT antifa. Sure, probably some of the white nationalists were also just non-violently protesting the removal of the Lee statue... dressed in fatigues, carrying torches, armed... but okay, not ready to fight, um, necessarily. It's hard to reconcile peaceful with the ideology of white people being superior to black people. They were showing off, ready for a fight; and some people wanted to fight them. So they fought. That's why I think it would have been a wash -- those looking for violence against those ready to meet them. But then there was Heather, and 19 or so other people, being run over by a car. So, yeah. No.
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Post by Christine on Aug 15, 2017 21:08:02 GMT -5
It would never have been a wash. Allow a couple of unsuccessful conservative presidential candidates to explain why: And NO NO NO FUCKING NO you do not go saying "oh, Antifa is sometimes violent too so both sides do it" in the wake of this. Even before the asshole with the car, you had a group of fucking Nazis marching for white supremacy. WTF. I'd like to punch one of them myself. We fought a goddamn war over this 70 odd years ago, remember? There is no moral equivalency between the ideologies; McCain and Romney are correct. But there is a moral equivalency in that inciting violence is wrong, no matter what you're fighting for. And there have been cases where antifa has incited violence. I don't know if this was one of them or not. I couldn't tell "who-was-who" from the footage I saw, quite frankly. It reminds me of being a mom and demanding to know who started it, because once punches have been thrown, it's about stopping the violence. (I'm talking about just the fighting; not the vehicular assault/murder.) Some people look for fights. Some people instigate fights. If you can look at all of that punching and fighting and root for one side simply because you agree with their beliefs, great. But I can't. I mean, viscerally, I can. But intellectually, I can't. I'm not wringing my hands over the idea that some Nazis got punched in the face. But if a peacefully protesting Nazi had been run over by a car driven by an Antifa, that would be wrong. Right?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 21:30:54 GMT -5
Um, sure. But that's...not even close to the flip side of what happened here.
And as to the inciting violence thing, taking aside who threw the first actual punches (and it sure as hell looked like the Nazis came ready to fight), yelling out racist slogans while waving Nazi flags seems pretty incite-ful-ish to me.
Sorry. Equating the two sides in this case is morally reprehensible and utterly indefensible.
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Post by maxinquaye on Aug 15, 2017 21:44:57 GMT -5
It is incredibly sad that in 2017 we need to assert that Nazis are really bad. I see it in rather simple terms. My Grandfather was a staunch Gaullist until he died. I disagreed with everything he stood for politically. But they pinned a medal on his chest for shooting Nazis, and it was the correct thing to do. I happened to inherit a few of those medals after him. I may polish his France Libre medal now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 21:46:11 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 21:47:20 GMT -5
It is incredibly sad that in 2017 we need to assert that Nazis are really bad. I see it in rather simple terms. My Grandfather was a staunch Gaullist until he died. I disagreed with everything he stood for politically. But they pinned a medal on his chest for shooting Nazis, and it was the correct thing to do. I happened to inherit a few of those medals after him. I may polish his France Libre medal now. Max, please please can I come live with you? I'm clean, quiet, semi-house-broken and a good cook.
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Post by Christine on Aug 15, 2017 21:56:40 GMT -5
Um, sure. But that's...not even close to the flip side of what happened here. No shit. I've mentioned this. More than once. Which I also said. The vileness of those words is not a justification for violence, but it's understandable. I understand it. I feel it, too. But it's not a justification. Equating the two sides, HOW? Because one side should be allowed to be violent? I should not categorically denounce violence? I should allow that violence is okay if people are vile enough in their ideology? Perfect example - my sympathy for the rioters in Ferguson (and elsewhere). There comes a time when enough is enough; victims have suffered and died; and people finally lose their shit. I get it. Is that what happened in Charlottesville? This Lee-statue protest attended by Nazis in riot gear didn't carry that weight for me -- the weight of police brutality. Police have power. White nationalist groups don't have that kind of power, or any, that I'm aware of, except to play dress up and,apparently, instigate fights.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 22:00:21 GMT -5
So only police can be bad and brutal?
yeah, no.
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Post by Christine on Aug 15, 2017 22:03:31 GMT -5
So only police can be bad and brutal? yeah, no. Police have the power to do so in the U.S. It's an imbalance of power. Do these Nazi groups have power... any power at all?
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Post by Angie on Aug 15, 2017 22:05:14 GMT -5
Here's a pretty good breakdown of why "but antifa is violent, too!" is a false equivalence. I very much agree with him. There is no comparison between actual freaking NAZIS and people standing up to ACTUAL FREAKING NAZIS. EDIT: I, too, disapprove of violence for any reason other than self-defense. However, I feel like the focus on Antifa possibly instigating a couple of the skirmishes waters down the fact that we have FREAKING NAZIS that feel bold enough to march without obscuring their faces and KKK assholes bold enough to march without their hoods. And with the car attack and the beating of Deandre Harris, I'm absolutely confident the points add up in favor of the alt-right assholes in terms of violence perpetrated.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 22:19:07 GMT -5
So only police can be bad and brutal? yeah, no. Police have the power to do so in the U.S. It's an imbalance of power. Do these Nazi groups have power... any power at all? This is a seriously WTF argument, Christine. I seriously suggest you think it through before you double down on it. Sleep on it. Lynch mobs , violent gangs, Mafia hit men -- they don't have the official power of the state behind them either. But they are brutal and dangerous, and when confronting them, sometimes it may be necessary to counter them with violence. Rogue groups need not have official power to be dangerous and evil. These Nazis came armed. They started it, by hateful words and violent actions. Come face to face with them, and tell me then whether you think they have "power." WTF. You can only be bad if you're officially the police? Everyone else can rampage at will, and it's all meh? WTF. And btw, these Nazis DO think they have the president behind them -- and they might just be right. ETA: I also don't condone violence except in self defense. But there's just no comparison between the two sides here. None. And making such a comparison normalizes the Nazis. WTF. Remember when people argued Hillary was just as bad as Trump? This is way more wrong than that.
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Post by Christine on Aug 15, 2017 22:29:14 GMT -5
You can "WTF" all you want, Cass. It was a simple question, and an honest one. I have no information regarding the power of the Nazis in the U.S., whether they have been killing people, whether they are akin to the Mafia or violent gangs.
You can't actually be accused of starting violence by saying words, no matter how vile they are. Free speech, remember?
And it pains me to have to repeat, lest I be misunderstood, that I find their speech vile. I find their ideology vile. I feel visceral hate when I see them in their gear and hear their chants.
I shouldn't have to keep saying that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 22:34:04 GMT -5
ETA -- I am deliberately quoting republicans on this point because it isn't, or shouldn't be, just a leftist talking point. It should be something normal Americans agree on. I'm glad to see a number of prominent establishment conservatives voicing it -- though I want more of them to throw Trump under the bus more explicitly.
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Post by Christine on Aug 15, 2017 22:41:09 GMT -5
In that article, this quote is right after a statement regarding Heather Hayer being killed by the Nazi in the car. And that's what I said too, upfront. That was the game-changer, right there. This was no longer people just who wanted to punch each other, punching each other. Yes, for the bazillionth time (not to you, Angie), the ideologies are not comparable. Look, Nazis can hold their beliefs all day long and get nowhere in a progressive society. Nazis can hold rallies and protest progress and then go the fuck on home when Robert E Lee statues are removed because we're done with that all that noise. If this is really about a fear that Trump is going to make being a Nazi cool again.... as much as I loathe him, I'm not seeing it. Nor am I seeing it from the majority GOP who are calling him out, so there's that.
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Post by Angie on Aug 15, 2017 22:51:42 GMT -5
...except that the KKK and neo-Nazis are absolutely seeing Trump's wishy-washy, "both sides are to blame" statement as a wink and a nod to their side. They absolutely believe that he supports them, whether he really does or not. And, frankly, it's terrifying and infuriating that it's not easy to tell which it is.
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