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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 23:03:25 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 23:16:48 GMT -5
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Post by maxinquaye on Aug 16, 2017 0:59:42 GMT -5
Maybe I should go and count to 10 now, and not say this. But...
Starting to talk about Antifa in this context is pure whataboutery. Antifa are not Nazis. Nazis are nazis. And if conservatives wants to get in bed with Nazis to the point that they start to engage in whataboutery to distract from the fact that the Conservatives' president just stood in a press conference and defended nazis, that's on them.
Antifa do not have as core ideology to murder anyone they disagree with. The Nazis do. Antifa does not propose to capture the state, and turn it into a well oiled machine to murder anyone they disagree with even slightly - the Nazis do. Antifa does not want to turn a nation's philosophers, artists, thinkers, religious leaders into champions for murdering anyone they disagree with even slightly. The nazis do. And the nazis did.
Interwar Germans can claim, with some justification, that they had no idea what they voted for with the Nazis. They weren't oracles and couldn't know the future. Modern Americans have NO such excuse. They can read history and see what the Nazis did last time they got into power.
They corrupted the nation of Schiller, Bach, Schopenhauer, Kant, Goethe and Luther into a machine for killing. They turned its philosophers into apologists for killing. They turned their scientists into inventors for efficient murder. They turned their priests into moral justificators for murder. They took over the state, and they made a killing machine out of it, and anyone who displeased the Nazis were fed into its hungry maws. Nazis are evil. Nazis are the closest thing to Biblical evil that the real world has ever produced. Germans could say in 1933 that 1945 was fanciful and exaggerated. Modern Americans can not say that.
So, don't give me shit about Antifa. It annoys me. Antifa may be angry young men who go out to try to find a fight. They might need a smack around the ear, and a stern admonition to get a haircut and a job. They may be belligerent and awkward. Separately, one could have an argument about Antifa. But don't even think about uttering the words "but Antifa is just as bad as the Nazis". No, they're not. Not even close. And uttering those words is pure whataboutery designed to stop talking about the fact that the US president is defending Nazis.
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Post by michaelw on Aug 16, 2017 4:24:50 GMT -5
(2) He hasn't yet found time in his busy golf schedule to call the family of the woman who was killed. I think it's only because the family called him first, and told him he was doing a great job as president.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 7:58:43 GMT -5
Maybe I should go and count to 10 now, and not say this. But... Starting to talk about Antifa in this context is pure whataboutery. Antifa are not Nazis. Nazis are nazis. And if conservatives wants to get in bed with Nazis to the point that they start to engage in whataboutery to distract from the fact that the Conservatives' president just stood in a press conference and defended nazis, that's on them. Antifa do not have as core ideology to murder anyone they disagree with. The Nazis do. Antifa does not propose to capture the state, and turn it into a well oiled machine to murder anyone they disagree with even slightly - the Nazis do. Antifa does not want to turn a nation's philosophers, artists, thinkers, religious leaders into champions for murdering anyone they disagree with even slightly. The nazis do. And the nazis did. Interwar Germans can claim, with some justification, that they had no idea what they voted for with the Nazis. They weren't oracles and couldn't know the future. Modern Americans have NO such excuse. They can read history and see what the Nazis did last time they got into power. They corrupted the nation of Schiller, Bach, Schopenhauer, Kant, Goethe and Luther into a machine for killing. They turned its philosophers into apologists for killing. They turned their scientists into inventors for efficient murder. They turned their priests into moral justificators for murder. They took over the state, and they made a killing machine out of it, and anyone who displeased the Nazis were fed into its hungry maws. Nazis are evil. Nazis are the closest thing to Biblical evil that the real world has ever produced. Germans could say in 1933 that 1945 was fanciful and exaggerated. Modern Americans can not say that. So, don't give me shit about Antifa. It annoys me. Antifa may be angry young men who go out to try to find a fight. They might need a smack around the ear, and a stern admonition to get a haircut and a job. They may be belligerent and awkward. Separately, one could have an argument about Antifa. But don't even think about uttering the words "but Antifa is just as bad as the Nazis". No, they're not. Not even close. And uttering those words is pure whataboutery designed to stop talking about the fact that the US president is defending Nazis. *Bakes cookies for Max* *Puts them in suitcase to deliver personally, since I'm moving to Sweden*
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Post by nighttimer on Aug 16, 2017 9:52:29 GMT -5
It is incredibly sad that in 2017 we need to assert that Nazis are really bad. Even sadder that our my president doesn't want to do it. Fixed that for ya. My president left office back in January. Sorry about yours.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 10:34:37 GMT -5
I'll take "the" rather than "my". He's been inflicted on me, but I never supported and certainly do not embrace him.
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Post by celawson on Aug 16, 2017 12:00:59 GMT -5
Trump failed again to lead in a moral way. I keep hoping he will evolve. He doesn't evolve. He should have unequivocally from minute one denigrated the white supremacists for the evil they are. And if his inability to do that quickly and sincerely has led to more of these white supremacist rallies being scheduled or even emboldened, then Trump needs to take responsibility for that.
This Alex Fields seems to be not only racist Nazi scum, but there are 911 calls that he beat up his mom for telling him to stop playing video games, threatened her with a 12 inch knife, was on medication for anger management. I have no idea if he went to the rally with the intent to hurt anyone, but if someone can beat up his own mom, it's not surprising a rock thrown at his car (as is alleged to have happened) could instigate him to accelerate his vehicle into a crowd of those he believes disagree with him. He's a ticking bomb and a monster. I guess one could argue that anyone who identifies with Nazis is mentally ill, or a psychopath, or "off". I wouldn't refute that. They certainly are evil. But this guy seems particularly unstable in addition to that. And unfortunately, his accelerator was underneath his foot when he got (even more) ticked off.
I'm glad the GOP leadership and AG Jeff Sessions have been strong in condemning these acts, and I hope Fields is prosecuted for both murder and domestic terrorism, but Trump...I have no words.
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Post by Vince524 on Aug 16, 2017 12:18:57 GMT -5
It's fair to want to have a conversation where you can find fault with Antifa or BLM, or any other group. Hell, we could have a discussion on finding fault with the Mickey Mouse club, and do so responsibly and reasonably.
But there's no room to defend, or be seen defending, a mob of torch wielding Nazi's, and there were some I think that held the fucking Nazi flag, where one of the bastards mowed over innocent people. There should be no equivocation on that.
Trump is as much my president as he is NT's in the sense that I didn't vote for him, didn't support him, didn't want him, but I'm stuck with him.
I've certainly not gone bat crap crazy and hated on everything he's done just because he's Trump. I've done my best to be fair to him.
But this is insulting to every one of us who finds what Nazi's stand for to be vile.
He can, and just may, backtrack. He may issue another carefully worded statement crafted by someone in his administration that's not yet been fired.
It will hold no weight and should be dismissed out of hand unless he actually apologizes, and even then. It'll be a hard sell.
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Post by nighttimer on Aug 16, 2017 12:35:33 GMT -5
Trump failed again to lead in a moral way. I keep hoping he will evolve. He doesn't evolve. He should have unequivocally from minute one denigrated the white supremacists for the evil they are. And if his inability to do that quickly and sincerely has led to more of these white supremacist rallies being scheduled or even emboldened, then Trump needs to take responsibility for that. I'm glad the GOP leadership and AG Jeff Sessions have been strong in condemning these acts, and I hope Fields is prosecuted for both murder and domestic terrorism, but Trump...I have no words.
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Post by Amadan on Aug 16, 2017 13:00:55 GMT -5
I can't see where Trump has done much right in his response to these events, from his wishy-washy first response to his stupidity in trying to parcel out responsibility to both sides. That said, the above is unfair, imo. It's nice when Presidents reach out to people who suffer losses, but it's ridiculous to suppose that they owe the family of every victim a phone call. He offered condolences to her and to the family of the officers killed, which is what he should have done, to be sure. Wtf, rob. Seriously? I know you have to be Fair and Balanced (tm) to Trump at all costs so no one thinks you're getting soft, but seriously? A rote acknowledgement that he's pretty much been a disaster in every way which you then have to follow with a "but here's this totally pedantic nitpick about how it's not fair to blame him for this one thing"? I mean, that's just being obtuse - no, the President does not routinely phone the families of every single high-profile victim of a crime, but when it's a national incident like this one, and given the optics, yes, it's not unreasonable to ask him if he's reached out to her family. It's not so much "You have an obligation to call every victim's family" as an attempt to dig for some evidence that he actually gives a fuck, or at least give him an opportunity to pretend he does.
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Post by Amadan on Aug 16, 2017 13:06:57 GMT -5
I'm glad the GOP leadership and AG Jeff Sessions have been strong in condemning these acts, and I hope Fields is prosecuted for both murder and domestic terrorism, but Trump...I have no words. Not feeling so tingly over him anymore? Sigh. I guess I should offer something other than snark, but I'm just kind of aghast that you've been steadfastly pollyannaing your way through every other gaffe, blunder and atrocity he's committed, but somehow this finally shakes your faith? Well, I'm glad there is a line somewhere. Now please don't ruin it with a "But Clinton."
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Post by Amadan on Aug 16, 2017 13:12:20 GMT -5
Speaking of words, I do wonder what happened to the Social Injustice Warriors of The Colline Gate who were so hot and bothered about snarky IT guy losing his job for talking smack about his employer and how "unfair" he was being treated by the mean ol' corporation because he didn't have much use for diversity. That story has been pushed deep in the bowels of the news hole because hardcore racists, the kind that don't couch their hate and rage behind pretty words and education, have oozed out of the shadows and into the light of day attacking, beating and killing those who oppose them. Suddenly the defenders of freedom and the neo-liberals/conservatives got nothing to say. I get it. Their fantasy football drafts are coming up and they're trying to prep for that. Priorities. Well, you've got me on ignore, right, so how would you know what I have or have not been saying? (Newsflash: I don't check CG every day nowadays. Also, I don't do FF.) Now, nt won't see this (because he has me on ignore ) but I actually agree with pretty much everything he said in this thread. Not that it has a damn thing to do with Damore or Google. But gosh, I'm sorry I didn't log in to add my assurances that I do in fact despise Nazis quickly enough to suit you.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 14:27:36 GMT -5
Welcome to our outrage party, Amadan. It's pretty crowded, but I shall scoot over a bit to make room for you. I've brought cookies. I believe Max is cooking up some moose. And of course, Angie brought some matches and gasoline. Everyone else can bring booze. We'll need it.
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Post by nighttimer on Aug 16, 2017 18:50:36 GMT -5
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