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Post by robeiae on Aug 31, 2017 15:54:36 GMT -5
This is really sad. Do you guys spend any time researching or learning anything about those you denounce so viciously or just lock the TV remote on Faux News and throw it away? The bad behavior of the anti-Fascists is matched by the lack of critical thinking by their carping critics and the false equivalency is pathetic. Here's a visual aid. THIS IS HOW YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANTIFA AND WHITE SUPREMACISTS. There's a vast difference between The Left being "way over the line" and The Right totally obliterating the line. It wasn't the Anti-Fascists who damn near beat Deandre Harris to death with poles or who weaponized a car in Charlottesville killing Heather Heyer. Too bad you three don't seem to know (or care) about the difference. You talkin' to me? Where did I say the antifa were no different than white supremacists? Critical thinking goes out the window when any criticism of the former is automatically portrayed as an attempt to make them equivalent to the latter. Which is what you are doing. You're not condoning the "bad behavior" of the antifa clowns, are you? I don't think you are. Regardless, I started this thread because of what went on in Berkeley, wherein a bunch of antifa clowns were assaulting people. You want to argue that such violence is "not a good look" for the left, yet still somewhat understandable because of Trump and the white supremacists out there, fair enough. But I disagree. I think the antifa crowd is largely made up of people looking for an excuse to act badly, as I said. That's their public face, after all. However, that doesn't magically translate in to me saying they are no different than white supremacists, that their violent actions are functionally the same. Because they're not.
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Post by nighttimer on Aug 31, 2017 21:58:54 GMT -5
If I quoted you then I'm talkin' to you. Where have you not? Not at all. Go back one page to my initial post and the last few lines. There's your critical thinking and criticism of the Anti-Fascists right there. Minus calling them "douchebags." You're right. I'm not condoning the "bad behavior" of the antifa clowns. I'm trying to understand them before I wag my crooked little finger and pass judgment on them the way you are. Actually, if one goes back to a bit to the Charlottesville thread I started, your first post was a link to a story about the Daily Stormer losing its web hosting service. Then you bridled at CassandraW for criticizing Trump not reaching out directly to Heather Heyer's family calling it "unfair" ( now where have I heard that before?). Then you grumped about how on your Facebook feed are unfriending and blocking Trump supporters ( anyone we know?). Then you turned your wrath on "the torch and pithcfork (sic) crowd" for not acknowledging Trump's Twitter expression of sympathy to Heyer's family. Then you declared "that crowd is using this murdered woman as nothing more than a prop to criticize Trump" and "most of them don't give a shit about her" except to use her death to rip Trump and oh yeah, the media is compliant with the Torch and Pitchfork crowd. How exactly the media is "complicit" you never explain, but I guess you're plugged into a different conduit of information than the rest of us. Then you admitted Trump's response to Charlottesville was "awful" because so is Trump, but holy shit Trump wasn't responsible for the protests and counter-protests and the violence and Heather Heyer's death. Directly responsible? No. Morally responsible because Trump fed this beast and when it rose up and people got hurt and killed it was partially due to his nod-nod and wink-wink to White supremacists? Goddamn straight he is. Then you unloaded on the White supremacists calling them "clowns" but blanched at any comparison between rebel flag waving Nazis and Wehrmacht Nazis because your grandpa fought those guys and those guys were REAL Nazis, not these e "shit-kickers" you dismiss as watered down wannabees. Then Amadan, Maxinquaye, poetinahat, Cassandra and I took issue with your assertion. You mixed in a one-liner "response" to Amadan. Oh, and Vince made an Indiana Jones joke in an attempt to lighten the mood. It didn't. Then you made your strongest condemnation of the White supremacists saying they were "ignorant blowhards who think the world owes them, who take out their frustrations on minorities and other marginalized groups because they can" and should be "treated like terrorists, like enemies, like traitors even." Yay! Oh, but not so fast. Because THEN you said, "But they no more represent a potential rise of "Nazism" as a political force in the USA than fringe nutters like the antifa represent a rise of communism or the like, than Islamic terrorists--like say that pair in San Bernadino--represent a rise of an actual Sharia state in the USA." So you're saying on one hand these ignorant blowhards should be treated like terrorists, enemies and traitors (the kind of guys the U.S. goes to war with and kills), but they DON'T represent a potential rise of "Nazism" in the U.S? Okay, so what the hell DO they represent and why are such drastic measures necessary for such a paltry threat? Then...well then you said something really silly about how you "can't see how white supremacists pose such a huge threat now, as opposed to the past" and got even sillier when you added, "My own experiences suggest that open racism is far less common today than it was when I was growing up" and I can't begin to take any of that seriously. I'll give you some credit, robeiae. You've criticized both sides here, but so have I. The difference you don't see is the Anti-Fascists are a nuisance like a buzzing fly that won't shoo away. The White Supremacists are a threat like a snarling pit bull going for your throat. Do you disagree?
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Post by robeiae on Sept 1, 2017 6:41:47 GMT -5
Nice sum job. Glad to know you hang on my every word. Yet nowhere are you showing where I equated the antifa clowns with the white supremacists. Nowhere.
I say "where have I done this?" and your response is "where have you not?" Yet, you can't offer an example where I have. That was an awful lot of effort you put in there to get around the reality that you can't provide any evidence to back up your claim.
But to that evidence, you're right, I don't think the white supremacists represent a potential revival of Nazism, just like I don't think the ISIS crowd--in this country--represent the possibility of a Sharia state. You noted that, yet you can't seem to process it at all, because look what you said in this regard: What's so difficult to process here? Terrorists are a threat because they engage in violence against people, because they kill people, because they try to spread terror. They're not necessarily a threat--imo--because they might "win." In this case we have white supremacist types and Islamic state types in the US. There are examples of both groups engaging in terrorism, right? Both groups have heinous ideologies, right? So when they do bad things, it fair that there's a response. What "drastic measures" are you talking about?
As to comparing this current crop of wannabes with WWII Nazis, the point is that these guys are not in the same league, any way you slice it. They're marginalized, ignorant, disorganized fools. But such people can still be dangerous, no doubt.
Which brings us to the fools who like to wear masks, carry backpacks, and pretend they're saving the world from fascism...by destroying property, fighting with cops, and beating people up. That's a far cry from ramming into a crowd of innocent people with a car, no doubt. But it's also a far cry from a strongly worded letter to the editor.
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 2, 2017 0:03:26 GMT -5
As to comparing this current crop of wannabes with WWII Nazis, the point is that these guys are not in the same league, any way you slice it. They're marginalized, ignorant, disorganized fools. But such people can still be dangerous, no doubt. Which is all Adolf Hitler and the brown shirts were during the Beer Hall Putsch. Once upon a time the past crowd of wannabes of WWII Nazis were considered marginalized, ignorant, disorganized fools. Nothing but a clown show to be mocked and dismissed. But they learned from that comedic failure. They mainstreamed. They got smarter. They got organized. They got power and but for the whole damn world rising up in war, they would have got it all. Moments of earth-shaking history are often precluded by seemingly insignificant instances of low comedy. Yesterday's putsch is tomorrow's Thousand Year Reich and thinking it can't happen here is depressingly naive. We can get fooled again by a charismatic leader who comes at up at a vulnerable and insecure time, divides to conquer and takes us into a dark nightmare sold as a bright dream. Times have changed. Human beings have not. You're still straining to equate the excesses of the Anti-Fascists with the excesses of the Fascists and they're not two sides of the same coin. Not even close. And dude, it's 2017. NOBODY gives a shit about a "strongly-worded letter to the editor." Take it from somebody who used to work in journalism.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 2, 2017 9:27:11 GMT -5
And dude, it's 2017. NOBODY gives a shit about a "strongly-worded letter to the editor." Take it from somebody who used to work in journalism. Which is sad, but not as sad that people seem to not give a shit about assaulting officers, destruction of property and the like.
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Post by robeiae on Sept 2, 2017 9:59:46 GMT -5
You're still straining to equate the excesses of the Anti-Fascists with the excesses of the Fascists and they're not two sides of the same coin. Not even close. I'm really not. But feel free to imagine such is the case if helps get you through the day.
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 2, 2017 15:49:29 GMT -5
And dude, it's 2017. NOBODY gives a shit about a "strongly-worded letter to the editor." Take it from somebody who used to work in journalism. Which is sad, but not as sad that people seem to not give a shit about assaulting officers, destruction of property and the like. That's hyperbole. People do give a shit about assaulting officers, destruction of property, and the like. You, on the other hand, do not seem to give a shit the anti-fascists are a response to the threat poised by White supremacists. All they do is assault and kill officers, destroy buildings with government employees and children in them, and the like. You're still straining to equate the excesses of the Anti-Fascists with the excesses of the Fascists and they're not two sides of the same coin. Not even close. I'm really not. But feel free to imagine such is the case if helps get you through the day. Yeah, you really are. Say you're not if it helps you get through the day and sleep through the night.
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Post by robeiae on Sept 2, 2017 17:53:29 GMT -5
Well, you can't actually point to where I'm equating them. And I think I was pretty clear in explaining that actions taken by both white supremacists and Islamic terrorists were far worse than anything done by the antifa crowd.
So your insistence that I am equating them is based in what, exactly? ESP? Or is it that you're loathe to surrender an inch of your perceived moral superiority to anyone who isn't in absolute agreement with you on everything? Or is it that you actually don't object to anything done by the antifa crowd, that you actually support their violent actions in full, but don't want to admit to this? Because if you can keep insisting my position is not what I say it is, I can do the same with you, right?
And that's a pretty stupid way to have a discussion, imo. You claim I'm equating the two groups, but have no evidence in this regard. I say I'm not, I even say that one group--the white supremacists--has done worse things than the other. That's the end of it, really. Have the intellectual honesty to admit that you were wrong.
Beyond that, I'll reiterate what I've said upthread:
Imo, the antifa crowd has a lot of people in it who are just looking for an excuse to behave badly, and again I think they're drawing from the same mindset as the bandanna-wearing anarchists who like to cause trouble at various protests. I've read their "ideas," their justifications as it were. At best, it's akin to stuff from college freshmen who read Marx for the first time and immediately think they're "in the know."
But AGAIN, such a lame, intellectually vacant "ideology" is a far cry from what is espoused by white supremacists, what is espoused by Islamic statists (?). These latter two groups have ideologies based on hating others for who they are. Can't say that about the antifa crowd.
Still, none of this is any reason to excuse the antifa clowns for their violent conduct. Why should they be excused? They're not special and the ones in their group who act badly should get called out for it, arrested and/or sent to jail if necessary, just as should happen to anyone else.
And I suppose the above will somehow be turned into me equating all of these groups...
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 2, 2017 18:58:30 GMT -5
Which is sad, but not as sad that people seem to not give a shit about assaulting officers, destruction of property and the like. That's hyperbole. People do give a shit about assaulting officers, destruction of property, and the like. You, on the other hand, do not seem to give a shit the anti-fascists are a response to the threat poised by White supremacists. All they do is assault and kill officers, destroy buildings with government employees and children in them, and the like. Where have I said anything of the sort? I have no use for a bunch of idiots that want to start a race war. I know there are plenty of people who stood against them peacefully. Some in more interesting ways than others. But these morons in masks who are attacking innocent people? I've got no use for them either. The vileness of one group doesn't excuse bad actions from the other.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2017 19:59:48 GMT -5
No, it doesn't. And I'll agree that Antifa engages in bad behavior, including this incident.
But given the (IMO) more egregious and dangerous vileness of the white supremacists (to whom Antifa is a response), it gets annoying to many of us that some cannot condemn white supremacists, even after one plows into a crowd with a car, without saying "but Antifa."
(See also "but Hillary!" whenever Trump does something terrible. When, sorry, she's just not in the same league with Trump, even if you play up the worst of her to the hilt and give Trump the benefit of the doubt 100% of the time. )
(1) neo-Nazi's suck even when they aren't doing anything violent, simply because their white supremacist philosophy is repugnant. Neo-Nazi's have chosen to embrace a philosophy that murdered millions. Whereas being against fascism -- yeah, I can get down with that. (b) neo-Nazis have killed, recently. (and their role models killed pretty prolifically). As far as I know, Antifa is responsible for violence and destruction, but haven't plowed cars into people. III. Antifa is a response to neo-Nazis; minus fascist movements, it would have no reason for being.
I can condemn them both, but there's something about doing it in the same breath -- especially in the wake of a neo-Nazi plowing into a crowd with a vehicle, killing one and injuring one -- that sticks in my craw. It feels to me like many on the right are playing up Antifa's misdeeds in order to say "both sides do it!" Sure, they do -- but one side is doing it worse, and that side helped elect our current administration.
I'm with nighttimer (and Angie, Max, et al.) that the neo-Nazis are a bigger concern. For one thing, our freaking president is encouraging them.
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Post by Amadan on Sept 2, 2017 22:26:49 GMT -5
Sigh. It's this thing you do, rob. I've called you on it, nt has called you on it, Cass has called you on it, and you still do it and deny you're doing it. No, you're not defending Trump. No, you're not equating antifas and Nazis.
No, it's just that whenever we criticize Trump, we have to remember there's a "But Clinton" or "But Obama." And if we criticize Nazis, we have to remember there's a "But Antifas."
I got no love for antifas. Yes, they're all noxious shit-stirrers. But there are a few differences.
First, the antifas would disappear if the Nazis disappeared. The reverse is not true.
Second, the antifas aren't getting support from the President and his circle and more importantly, their goals do not align with Trump's. Their enemies are not Trump's enemies.
The likelihood of a fascist coup, or a swing towards fascism in general, is now, in my estimation, somewhere in the single digits. Which is to say still unlikely, but it's an existential threat to the Republic and it's non-zero, which means scoffing at Nazis is missing the point. No, the literal Nazis who wear literal Nazi uniforms and shout literal Nazi slogans are not the existential threat. They're just a symptom of it. A distraction, really.
Antifas are not an existential threat. The likelihood of BLM, Occupy, Antifas, all those guys, taking over the country and flushing the Constitution is way less than 1%.
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Post by robeiae on Sept 3, 2017 7:51:12 GMT -5
This thread--that I started--was about incidents in Berkeley involving violent actions by so-called anarchists (in the story I quoted initially) who were also identified as antifa. So let's get clear here: I'm not "But Clintoning" at all. That would be what you are doing. No one needs to condemn some other group to condemn the actions of the antifa clowns a Berkeley. Even Pelosi knows this (fwiw, a far better response than anything that has come from Trump): On the flip side, however, the violence of the antifa crowd seems to have produced the desired effect, at least in Berkeley.
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Post by Amadan on Sept 3, 2017 8:09:09 GMT -5
This thread--that I started--was about incidents in Berkeley involving violent actions by so-called anarchists (in the story I quoted initially) who were also identified as antifa. So let's get clear here: I'm not "But Clintoning" at all. That would be what you are doing. No one needs to condemn some other group to condemn the actions of the antifa clowns a Berkeley. Even Pelosi knows this (fwiw, a far better response than anything that has come from Trump): On the flip side, however, the violence of the antifa crowd seems to have produced the desired effect, at least in Berkeley. Okay, so has anyone here said "Yay, Antifa"? I maintain that when it comes to the white supremacist demonstrators, you concede they're very unpleasant fellows, but hey, free speech. When it comes to the antifa, you're all "THESE PEOPLE ARE HORRIBLE!!!!" It's not that anyone here disagrees with you. White supremacists are unpleasant fellows, free speech is important, and antifas are horrible. But just as you can't stand to see an unequivocal condemnation of Trump without but-Clintoning, you seem to need to always cast about for some leftist bogeyman to "balance" criticisms of Nazis.
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 3, 2017 11:41:35 GMT -5
Well, you can't actually point to where I'm equating them. And I think I was pretty clear in explaining that actions taken by both white supremacists and Islamic terrorists were far worse than anything done by the antifa crowd. Albeit that it comes with a qualifier. You can't seem to acknowledge the actions taken by both White supremacists and Islamic terrorists were far worse. Period. End of sentence. No qualifiers necessary. Anti-Fascists are violent and they are subject to being called out for being violent. But it is remotely on the same level of violence or the same threat as poised by the KKK, Nazis and ISIS. My "insistence" is based upon actually reading what you've written and noticing what you haven't. "Moral superiority" doesn't factor into it, but reading comprehension and critical thinking do. A clean slate does not mean there's no old baggage to carry and yours is taking umbrage at how I interpret your intent. What I notice is how you try to square the circle. Oh, the White supremacists are deplorable BUT the Anti-Fascists are too. You're not a fan of Trump. You just follow Trump's Tweets. You don't hate Hillary Clinton and Debbie Wasserman Schultz, BUT boy, does it feel good to watch them get worked over. You're not a Trump supporter BUT the media is "unfair," wants to blame him for everything, and is obsessed with the Russians. If you wish to accuse me of supporting the violent actions of the Anti-Fascists, you are free to do so. It won't be true, but don't let that slow your roll. It's not so much I don't object to the blunt force tactics used by the Anti-Fascists as it is I don't object to people who see fascism and racism on the march feeling compelled to stand in its way. There are better ways and smarter tactics than direct, violent confrontation. Punch a Nazi? Probably not the best idea. Expose a Nazi to his employer and neighbors? Probably a more efficient way to embarrass and shame them. Not everything can be neatly split down the middle and if I have an issue with "moral superiority," you have one with being disingenuous. You seem to perceive yourself as a fair and balanced open thinker who parks his preferences and prejudices in order to see the flaw in both sides of the argument. It's a nice sentiment, but it ain't a true one. You have biases and those biases influence what you post and what you're pissed about. Same as everybody else. I have the intellectual honesty to admit when I'm wrong, but honestly? This isn't one of those times. You said it, not me.
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Post by robeiae on Sept 3, 2017 12:17:25 GMT -5
Okay, so has anyone here said "Yay, Antifa"? No. Did I claim that someone did say that? I specifically noted that--for instance--I didn't think nighttimer was condoning their bad behavior at all. Well again, this thread was about events in Berkeley, wherein the violent behavior was coming the antifa crowd. As to white supremacists, nighttimer actually noted in this thread what I said about them in the other thread, that they're "ignorant blowhards who think the world owes them, who take out their frustrations on minorities and other marginalized groups because they can," and how I think they should be treated, "like terrorists, like enemies, like traitors even." Yes, I'm casting about. I didn't bring the issue of Nazis or White Supremacists into this thread. And that's not to say I object to that happening, because I don't. I think nighttimer is right about knowing what's driving the antifa crowd and I read the links he posted in that regard. But I still come to this conclusion about antifa:
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