Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 14:54:52 GMT -5
God, the GOP effort to repeal Obamacare and put in something worse just won't die. Only it will again this time, I think, at least for now. Rand Paul is a no. www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/09/18/sen-rand-paul-grahamcassidy-does-not-repeal-obamacare-and-oppose-it.htmlIn a true bit of irony, they are trying to buy Lisa Murkowski by essentially saying Alaska can keep Obamacare if she votes to repeal it. But last time Sen. Murkowski said she wanted something that worked for America, not just Alaska. I have faith she'll be a no. Rumor has it Susan Collins is likely a no. And Johnny Mac, bless his crotchety stubborn little maverick heart, decided to come out front with a decisive "no" now rather than waiting until the last minute: ETA: Seriously, it just boggles me that the,GOP couldn't get their act together and come up with something better after all these years of bitching about the ACA. It's truly pathetic.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2017 11:34:23 GMT -5
And, of course, Trump is raging on Twitter, claiming that McCain betrayed his best friend Senator Graham:
Senator Graham himself, though he is pressing on with his bill and stated that he disagrees with McCain, is way more gracious:
THAT, Mr. Trump, is actually the way this shit should work, in my opinion. Not Senators voting based on nothing but lemming party obedience and personal loyalty, but on their beliefs on what is best for the country and with mutual respect, even in disagreement. I hate Graham's bill, but in my book he gets big points for being gracious and a gentleman about McCain's refusal to sign onto it.
Needless to say, I'm thrilled McCain made the announcement he did. It's not even just about this icky bill. It's about a return to good faith discussion and debate, and to regular order.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 10:44:33 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Sept 24, 2017 13:38:22 GMT -5
Yeah, one can still think there are major flaws in the current system without buying into this new one. And the GOP has had plenty of time. McCain is correct that this needs a bipartisan approach, as it should have had the first time.
I'd suggest the gop separate certain parts of healthcare out, like preexisting conditions so they can become their own law, and then taking on the less popular parts. Also, no reason why we can't allow health care to compete over state lines now as far as I can see.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 9:44:34 GMT -5
Whatever you may think of the ACA or Graham-Cassidy, it is hard not to admire this if you have any principles whatsoever.
That's the kind of thing we need more of in our reps, IMO. "I will not be bought off."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 17:18:31 GMT -5
Susan Collins is officially a no:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 18:52:18 GMT -5
...which means this bill is likely dead. Or, given recent history, it's only mostly dead.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Sept 26, 2017 7:28:33 GMT -5
Seriously, it just boggles me that the,GOP couldn't get their act together and come up with something better after all these years of bitching about the ACA. It's truly pathetic. I don't disagree. But then, it's equally mind-boggling to me that the ACA was actually passed--by the Dems, alone--back in 2010 and it's huge problems were never addressed by the Dems or the previous admin. And even now, the Dems in Congress aren't doing jack shit in the way of offering solutions. They've just switched over to the previously Repub mantra: oppose, oppose, oppose.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2017 9:04:41 GMT -5
As you know, I agree with you that the ACA is flawed and something needs to be done about that, stat.
But from the point of view of what is the most mind-boggling, I find the GOP failure to have a repeal plan easily takes the cake. They've been running on the idea of repeal for nearly eight years now. It's been the inevitable rallying cry for all of them. And it's pretty clear now -- they had no viable ideas, none, for how to replace it, certainly none that could get past CBO. It's not even that they don't all agree on a plan. It's that I have yet to read about an idea I didn't think was an ill-considered disaster. And I am one you could convince on a free-market solution, if I didn't think it simply came down to "you get sick? tough shit! go bankrupt and/or die!" Moreover, they haven't come up with one that even a lot of them didn't think was a disaster -- it's clear that most of the GOP votes they are getting are not enthusiastic "yes, this is great!" votes, but instead are "gaah, we gotta pass something or we'll look like assholes" votes.
Given that there hasn't been a GOPer since 2010 who hasn't run with "Repeal and Replace" as a battle cry, I honestly expected to hear some free market ideas we could at least chew on.
(Whereas the Dems have not been running for eight years with "fix Obamacare!" as a rallying cry. They've been running with the much milder aside, "sure, there a few bugs. Let's get together and patch 'em." And though Obamacare is far from perfect, the Dems did in fact succeed in 2010 in what they had pledged to do -- pass a healthcare system.)
This, to me, is akin to someone bragging for years about how they are going to run a marathon and kick your best time's ass -- but then they get to the start line and you find they haven't trained, think a marathon is a 5K, and are wearing patent leather dress shoes.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2017 10:47:07 GMT -5
There is also the fact that they spent eight years bashing the process that resulted in the ACA -- but then used one that was much, much, much worse.
The contrast between their complaints for eight years and their actions now that they own the place is just astonishing.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Sept 26, 2017 11:26:06 GMT -5
It's not a healthcare system. It's a health insurance system. And a shit one, at that.
From the beginning, Dems--through the ACA--sought to not only mandate insurance, but to mandate coverage for people with pre-existing conditions. The latter continues to be something that even Repubs have tried to maintain.
Sorry, but this is just stupid, imo. Because it creates a situation wherein people are not actually buying insurance at all, but rather are simply paying a fee in order to get a discount on services. And it's not only stupid, it's supremely dishonest.
Yet people actually talk themselves into believing that somehow this makes sense, that it's intellectually defensible. And all it's doing in the long run is helping to jack up premiums for everyone, contributing to narrowing the market, and probably driving up real costs, as well.
So I'm not buying this "well, it has some flaws" point of view at all. It's a horrible piece of legislation. It should be repealed in full, replacement or no replacement. And I know there are GOPers who would be on board for that. But everyone knows it's political suicide to strip away an entitlement program, so the GOP is stuck with trying to manufacture a substitute for the ACA. And true enough, their attempts at this look to be largely crap-fests (but then we can't say with authority that these substitutes are much, much worse unless they are actually put in place).
The Dems had control when they passed the ACA. Why the hell didn't they just go single payer from the get-go, since that's what they really wanted?
If the Repubs never get anything done on the ACA, they may suffer at the ballot box (and rightfully so), but when the shit continues to hit the fan down the road because of the stupidity of the Dems and Obama, I hope people remember who actually caused the mess.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2017 11:46:49 GMT -5
I agree with much of your assessment of the ACA.
But it was, at least, motivated by an attempt to help people who couldn't afford health insurance and/or had pre-existing conditions. Many who got insurance through employers were and are unaware of just how crazy expensive it was if you didn't get it that way, or downright unobtainable if you had a pre-existing condition.
And the trouble is, without insurance, healthcare is just not affordable for most of us.
Do something about the insane costs, and the inability to get insurance might not be such a big deal. But minus that, insurance pretty much has to one into it.
So as ill-designed as the ACA was, at least I could get on board with the intentions. I can't get onboard with the going back to the pre-ACA status quo, nor with the intentions behind any GOP bill s far (which seem to be, at best, about taxcits to those who don't need it, abandoning those who most need help, and simply tearing down the ACA without regard to what, if anything replaces it.
If the GOP were giving serious efforts to plans to bring down the cost of healthcare itself, and/or a real effort to preventing the cost of insurance from being out of reach, I'd give them some points, even if I didn't think their plan was great. As t is? I can't give them credit for squat -- not for plans, intentions, or process.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Sept 26, 2017 11:58:35 GMT -5
Well, I'll not give the GOP any credit, but nor will I give any to the Dems for their intentions. Road to hell (or serfdom) and all that.
They all suck, and none of them are willing to own up to their suckiness, except for maybe Sanders and a few others.
The weird thing here: I believe Trump would sign just about any healthcare bill he was given, including a single payer one. It's not something he seems to really care all that much about, imo.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2017 12:06:09 GMT -5
Here's what I'd love to see:
(a) A bipartisan effort to identify problems and shared essential goals. (I submit that these goals should include that no one be unable to afford and obtain basic healthcare, and that no one should die from a perfectly preventable disease or suffer unnecessarily because of lack of money. Really, do most Republicans disagree that's important?). And then
(2) An open-minded discussion of ways to meet those goals and the obstacles (in each state). The ACA focused on insurance. I'd be happy to talk about bringing down costs. why is healthcare more expensive here than in other first-world countries? It is not better. We spend more and overall our citizens get less, despite talented doctors and great facilities. And at the same time, many doctors, particularly primary care doctors, don't seem to be flourishing -- many are struggling with student loan debt decades after graduation. Why? This is bad, no? What might fix all that?
(iii) proposed solutions that don't meet the goals in (a) get tossed. Solutions that might meet those goals get considered for feasibility from the standpoint of cost, etc. (Democrats can agree that we don't want to bankrupt the country and that we need a sustainable system, right?)
But instead of talking about that, it's all about political philosophy and partisan opposition. People pound their chests and talk about insurance instead of healthcare, and about "freedom" from having to buy insurance, which is all fine and well until you get cancer, or bitch because they are currently healthy and yet their dollars help the sick, or worrying about whether a lottery winner might get more than their fair share, whatever the fuck that might be.
I feel like the whole question of actual care for actual people gets lost in the bluster.
ETA:
I submit that part of the expense is that huge amounts of money end up with the middleman insurance companies. Agree? Disagree? And if so, what should be done about it? If not, what is the big problem?
Another thing I'll keep saying until my tongue withers -- we should de-couple healthcare and employment. If employers want to pay an extra bonus to go towards the employee's healthcare, fine, but the two things should not be tied the way they are now. It hides the true costs and the fact that Americans, even in the same state, are not on the same footing when it comes to buying healthcare.
ETA:
I also agree that Trump would sign anything put in front of him, up to and including a single-payer plan.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2017 19:30:48 GMT -5
|
|