|
Post by mikey on Sept 30, 2017 20:11:29 GMT -5
I remember Obamacare, does that count?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 20:14:58 GMT -5
Then you have a VERY short memory for what the Tea Party movement attempted and accomplished, or for what happened once Obama had a GOP congress that pretty much blocked him at every turn. And don't get me started on what happened with Garland. Did something happen with Garland? * *hides under a desk Don't make me smite you, Michael. Now, if you're talking protests, Mikey, I'll agree that current protests are much larger and frequent than they were under Obama (or the Bushes or Clinton or...) But that's because a lot more of us are unhappy with Trump than with Obama (or the Bushes or Clinton or...). The far right was pretty vicious about Obama, and the conservatives were pretty critical, but by and large the middle might have their criticisms but were at least OK with him. Overall he was reasonably popular. With Trump, it's not just the left that is upset, it's the moderates and independents. It's most of the country. Look at his approval ratings. And we're not just a little upset with his policies, we're incredibly upset at stuff he tweets out every day and the damage we feel he's doing to the country. Yeah, there's more protesting, but he's brought it on himself.
|
|
|
Post by mikey on Sept 30, 2017 20:37:49 GMT -5
The much larger protest are part of what I'm talking about. Also the the whole unsupported Russia-gate thing. The much wider media coverage of less than factual accusations of collusion, pee parties, and such things.
Many more people are involved this time around,as you say, “most of the country”. With millions and millions of people so but-hurt over President Trump, yes, its amazing to me no one has not went all Lee Harvey Oswald on him.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 21:36:26 GMT -5
There is a shitload of support for the Russian thing and the Trump campaign's possible involvement in it (which is why there is an investigation going on in the first place and why the Republican congress is not only permitting it, but warning Trump against any attempt to fire Mueller).
But taking that aside, good lord. Did you miss the last nine years with the birther thing and the Muslim thing and the ridiculous rumors about Hillary's health and alleged drinking problem etc.? Even years later, with freaking PROOF of the birth certificate and a long, constant history of his being a devout Christian, a lot of conservatives still believe he is a secret Muslim and not a U.S. citizen. Come on.
ETA:
As for the piss tape, I don't know whether it exists or not. But the reason so many give it credence is actually is own quite notorious past -- his serial cheating on his serial wives, his bragging about his exploits to Howard Stern for hours on end and to tabloids, the freaking pussy tape.
Really, it is simply not a stretch to picture him hiring Russian prostitutes, at all. And the having them piss on a bed Obama slept in is, alas, in keeping with a certain childish, malicious, outrageous streak he has.
Finally, his sketchy business history (repeatedly failing to pay workers and contractors), his refusal to release his tax returns, his constant, daily stream of lies and contradictions and unsupported assertions -- why on earth would we take his word for anything?
As a NYC resident, I've seen all this shit about him since way before he was a candidate for president, and before he was on the damn Apprentice show. He's a notorious figure here, which is why he got almost no one voting for him. (Yeah, we're a blue city, but even so it's astonishing what a low percentage of the vote he got here, especially given that it's a hometown boy. I didn't know any Republicans in NYC who voted for him (most went Johnson, a couple McMullin, and a couple -- gasp -- for Hillary), but they'd all faithfully turned out for Mitt Romney four years before. And don't forget we voted in Giuliani twice. So you really can't pooh pooh it as "oh, you're all biased liberals anyway and never vote for Republicans." )
ETA:
As much as I obviously do not like Trump, I will add that I absolutely do condemn people making violent threats against him. I didn't think much of Kathy Griffin's joke, either. All presidents are at risk of assassination. I don't think it's a good thing to joke about.
But it is the fact that people actually did this shit with Obama, too. And while it's true that way more people are protesting Trump and his policies, I don't think it's true that more people are threatening violence against him. And even fewer who would genuinely act on it. (For all the "lynch Obama in effigy" stuff, I note that he's also alive and well.)
|
|
|
Post by mikey on Sept 30, 2017 22:43:28 GMT -5
The next 7 years will be interesting. I for one am eagerly awaiting to see if the accusations from Mr. and Ms anonymous,concerning Russia-gate, will be found out to be true.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 22:58:21 GMT -5
The next 7 years will be interesting. I for one am eagerly awaiting to see if the accusations from Mr. and Ms anonymous,concerning Russia-gate, will be found out to be true. I don't think it's going to be seven years. I tend to think, actually, that it won't even be Trump who runs in 2020. I am betting on him voluntarily choosing not to run, and passing the baton to Pence. Time will tell. There's a lot of shoes to drop. But seriously, taking aside what happens with Mueller, I don't think Trump actually enjoys being president. I really don't. I think he'd rather be free to golf whenever he damn well pleases. I am very interested in seeing what comes of Russia-gate. That said, I think that's going to take a while. I feel rather confident we'll see some indictments, though if I were placing money, I'm guessing they'll be lower down than Trump. However, I'm guessing Trump does not escape without some tarnish. The piss tape -- honestly, though as I said, I get while people believe it exists, I am seriously skeptical about it. If it existed, I think it would have turned up by now. I also don't buy the (now dropped) lawsuit saying he knowingly and violently raped a thirteen year old virgin. I would believe he slept with a prostitute, and I would not find it hard to believe that she turned out to be underage (which doesn't mean he knew it). But I don't see him forcefully raping someone who was screaming for help and begging him to stop and telling him she was thirteen and a virgin. And again, I don't think the case would just disappear if it were true -- not now.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 23:03:05 GMT -5
I remember Obamacare, does that count? Actually, it's nowhere in the same league. Unlike the Republican attempt to muscle in their replacement for it, the Democrats held a ton of hearings (the GOP held none). They solicited input. There was plenty of time to review drafts and comment on them. Part of the reason the thing is such a tangled monster (and I'm the first to acknowledge that it is) was that they did attempt to compromise on it. www.snopes.com/aca-versus-ahca/ETA: I am not a particular defender of the ACA. (Indeed, I was a yuuuge critic of it when it passed.) And I agree with Senator McCain that it is not a great thing when legislation pushes through on party lines (though, to note, the ACA did get 60 votes, not 49, 2 of which were independents, and there was a lot more discussion and opportunity to weigh in, obtain feedback from experts and the voting public. Whereas the GOP's repeal didn't pass because they couldn't even get enough Republican votes for their hastily and secretively cobbled-together "replacement."). But -- at least the ACA legislation was a genuine attempt to accomplish something. The Garland thing was nothing but a block (for a freaking YEAR), based not on Garland's merits (he's well-qualified and quite moderate), not on any problem they expressed with his abilities or credentials, but out of the pure desire to fuck Obama. They didn't even give him a damn hearing. It wasn't even just him -- they prevented a ton of Obama's judge nominees lapse, which is why the federal bench is so woefully short. I have a close friend (a pretty non-political and moderate one, clean as a whistle) who also got blocked without a hearing. It was obstruction with no goal but obstruction. Seriously, the Garland nonprocess was nothing like the process for passing the ACA. It is in every way an apples to hammers comparison. I'm with McCain that both parties need to try to work together better in Congress going forward. But please, the GOP has no standing to whine about the Democrats being meanie mcmeanie obstructionists to Trump.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Oct 1, 2017 20:02:19 GMT -5
The next 7 years will be interesting. I for one am eagerly awaiting to see if the accusations from Mr. and Ms anonymous,concerning Russia-gate, will be found out to be true. I don't think it's going to be seven years. I tend to think, actually, that it won't even be Trump who runs in 2020. I am betting on him voluntarily choosing not to run, and passing the baton to Pence. Time will tell. There's a lot of shoes to drop. But seriously, taking aside what happens with Mueller, I don't think Trump actually enjoys being president. I really don't. I think he'd rather be free to golf whenever he damn well pleases. I am very interested in seeing what comes of Russia-gate. That said, I think that's going to take a while. I feel rather confident we'll see some indictments, though if I were placing money, I'm guessing they'll be lower down than Trump. However, I'm guessing Trump does not escape without some tarnish. The piss tape -- honestly, though as I said, I get while people believe it exists, I am seriously skeptical about it. If it existed, I think it would have turned up by now. I also don't buy the (now dropped) lawsuit saying he knowingly and violently raped a thirteen year old virgin. I would believe he slept with a prostitute, and I would not find it hard to believe that she turned out to be underage (which doesn't mean he knew it). But I don't see him forcefully raping someone who was screaming for help and begging him to stop and telling him she was thirteen and a virgin. And again, I don't think the case would just disappear if it were true -- not now. I don't think Pence will run, and if he does he won't win. (I say this after having said Trump wouldn't win.) I do think there's a good chance he won't run again as he seems bored by the job already. Then we'll see who the Dems run, who the GOP runs and once again, it'll be back to more traditional choices of the lesser evils.
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Oct 1, 2017 20:11:18 GMT -5
Grade-wise, I'd give him an F-.
I can't say I think everything he's done is absolutely wrong, but the fact that he can't stop being an ass is, in and of itself, enough to earn him that grade. Because he sucks as a President, imo. He's just no good at it. I honestly hope he gets fed up and quits.
|
|
|
Post by Don on Oct 1, 2017 20:25:50 GMT -5
If the trend continues, the Dems could probably win with Hillary in 2020. Nobody wants her, but even fewer would want a second term for Trump.
|
|
|
Post by michaelw on Oct 1, 2017 20:37:14 GMT -5
If the trend continues, the Dems could probably win with Hillary in 2020. Nobody wants her, but even fewer would want a second term for Trump. Don't give them any ideas!
|
|
|
Post by mikey on Oct 1, 2017 20:44:35 GMT -5
I don't think it's going to be seven years. I tend to think, actually, that it won't even be Trump who runs in 2020. Then we'll see who the Dems run, who the GOP runs and once again, it'll be back to more traditional choices of the lesser evils. I think it'll be awfully difficult putting the toothpaste back in the tube
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2017 21:19:50 GMT -5
Then we'll see who the Dems run, who the GOP runs and once again, it'll be back to more traditional choices of the lesser evils. I think it'll be awfully difficult putting the toothpaste back in the tube Mikey, in a way I agree with you on that. That said, I bet we likely disagree on how it will all shake out in a few years, and only time will settle that. I think there is a percentage of the GOP party -- a fairly hefty portion -- who love Trump, honestly hate the establishment GOP and reject them as much as they do the Democrats. I don't think that will change any time soon. At the same time, there's a very large percentage of Republicans and Conservatives who find Trump appalling, and there are an increasing number, many of them prominent, who were willing to walk over it. I'm following a bunch of them on Twitter -- Evan McMullen, Rick Wilson, Joe Scarborough, Max Boot, to name a few. I see them sneered at as "RINOs" and "liberals" -- yeah, no, they aren't. And conservative publications like National Review are increasingly critical of Trump. I don't think those folks are going to come around to the alt-right and bow to a Trumpian take-over of their party. I think they're going to try to take it back. To do so, they're going to make a play for Republicans who are very uncomfortably riding the fence of party loyalty, but unhappy with Trump, and if they're smart, they'll make a serious play for moderates, independents and maybe even the center left. If I were going to bet, I think the GOP ultimately splits itself. I truly do. The gap between the Trump group and the establishment is just too huge. The NotTrump people could form a new conservative party, or they could become a new wing of blue dog Democrats. (Don't laugh -- Reagan started as a Democrat. Hillary started as a Republican. As the parties shifted, they shifted too. It could happen again.) Then on the Democrat side, there are the pissed off Bernie Bros. To be honest, for all the disarray and dissension among the Democrats, I actually don't think the split is (yet) as big as on the GOP side. So I don't think, all on its own, the Democrats would split in two, BUT... ...what I can imagine coming of all this, without much of a stretch? The Democrats coalescing around someone far to the left, the GOP coalescing around Trump, and the NeverTrump group of moderate conservatives forming a party that appeals more to the center left than the far left candidate. A lot of NeverTrump conservatives are gaining a huge number of Democrat fans (not to mention independents). If instead of trying to appeal to the Trump base, they sought to appeal to them... I think we could have a winnah. IMO, the center left and the center right have as much in common with one another (sometimes more) than either does with their supposed "base." And that's a lot of people. Nighttimer wouldn't likely vote for that person. You likely wouldn't vote for that person. Probably c.e. wouldn't vote for that person (though I'm not so sure -- I think it would depend). But the rest of us here could likely be in play for that moderate candidate. I'm not so crazy about Bernie, myself...If the moderate had a left lean in areas where it matters to me, had a rock solid reputation for integrity, viable economic ideas, a good grasp on foreign policy... To make a long story short, if ever the time was ripe for a new party to emerge, I think it's now. It might not be a permanent three major party situation -- I think it likely there'd be an implosion somewhere -- but I would not be at all surprised to see a moderate NeverTrump conservative emerge and form such a party. (and no, I don't think he or she will run under the Libertarian party banner, though he/she might well have a small "l" libertarian streak.) I suppose instead the Trumpian group could break off and have their new party, if Trump and/or Bannon leads that charge -- and they just might. Anyway, I agree with you insofar as I don't think we will easily return to the status quo of a few years back. Maybe eventually. ETA: Actually, I do see one way we might go back to the status quo in 2020, but it won't be pretty for the country. That's if Trump implodes bigly, in a way that alienates most of his die-hard base. E.g., a catastrophic financial meltdown, a terrible, unpopular war that is clearly largely down to his actions, or a scandal that is just so hideous and clearly proven that no one half-way reasonable could defend him. If that occurred, I suspect that many of Trump's supporters would return to grumblingly voting for more conventional GOP candidates, while perhaps some just stopped voting in disgust. It could happen. But it likely will be ugly for the entire country if it does, because it would have to be YUUUUGE in my opinion. ETA: So. Now you can all tell me why everything I said is totally all wrong.
|
|