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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2017 18:11:20 GMT -5
The fact that this was a media push, that no one has made any complaints, that the kiss-ee was genuinely laughing for an extended period of time -- all indicate that "ifs" and other meaningless speculation are a useless exercise. More so, I view the attention to it (in general) as GIRLS, KISS, ERMIGERD, SEXUAL ASSAULT, as detracting from the problem of sexual assault. I personally think it best not to entertain notions that do not exist. How long did it take for women to come out publicly about Weinstein, Cosby, etc.? How many woman have had their asses grabbed, etc. and laughed it off because it would be awkward to do otherwise, or they were afraid they'd end up looking bad? She may not feel comfortable complaining in light of the circumstances here -- afraid she'd look like a wimp, etc. And the kisser knew that -- and deliberately took advantage of it. The fact it involves two women -- what, one woman cannot sexually assault another? I'm serious -- I distinctly see a scenario where this is a sexual assault, and the woman just feels like she can't speak up, even though she is grossed out. As far as speculating on facts we don't and can't know, how many thread pages have we spent speculating on Donald and Melania's marriage based on one hand swat and a facial expression shift?
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Post by Christine on Oct 28, 2017 18:27:59 GMT -5
Then WHY are you speculating?
Weinstein and Cosby had power, there was a lack of evidence, so the scenarios are not equal, not by a longshot.
But sure, there is a possibility, however slim, that the woman in the OP views that kiss as assault, but she is afraid to speak out... there is AMPLE evidence, however, should she choose to press charges.
I don't see anything amiss here--not a single thing--other than, like you, I wouldn't want it to be me. If imagining it's you gets your speculative urges primed, by all means, carry on. But this is why I think it's stupid, and why I think discussing as sexual assault things that are most likely NOT sexual assault does the cause no service. My point in saying all of this was to explain my position. Clearly, it has not helped, but them's the breaks.
As an aside, I'm not at all interested in having you teach me what sexual assault is comprised of, or how women deal with it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2017 18:45:38 GMT -5
I don't think you're much interested in actually discussing much of anything with me, from the sound of it.
And I confess, it is mutual.
I'm exiting the thread.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 29, 2017 8:52:31 GMT -5
The fact that this was a media push, that no one has made any complaints, that the kiss-ee was genuinely laughing for an extended period of time -- all indicate that "ifs" and other meaningless speculation are a useless exercise. More so, I view the attention to it (in general) as GIRLS, KISS, ERMIGERD, SEXUAL ASSAULT, as detracting from the problem of sexual assault. I personally think it best not to entertain notions that do not exist. I don't think I agree. I mean, there may be an element of that ("How come this isn't 'sexual assault', huh, huh???") But also, if a guy did that and the woman laughed it off, there would be speculation that she didn't really think it was funny or harmless, but felt social pressure to make light of it. If the first woman kissed the other as a "joke" but also as a way of asserting dominance, to embarrass the other woman and force her to either make a big deal out of it or laugh it off as a joke, that is pretty much exactly what men in similar situations are accused of, isn't it?
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Post by Christine on Oct 29, 2017 9:07:38 GMT -5
The fact that this was a media push, that no one has made any complaints, that the kiss-ee was genuinely laughing for an extended period of time -- all indicate that "ifs" and other meaningless speculation are a useless exercise. More so, I view the attention to it (in general) as GIRLS, KISS, ERMIGERD, SEXUAL ASSAULT, as detracting from the problem of sexual assault. I personally think it best not to entertain notions that do not exist. I don't think I agree. I mean, there may be an element of that ("How come this isn't 'sexual assault', huh, huh???") But also, if a guy did that and the woman laughed it off, there would be speculation that she didn't really think it was funny or harmless, but felt social pressure to make light of it. If the first woman kissed the other as a "joke" but also as a way of asserting dominance, to embarrass the other woman and force her to either make a big deal out of it or laugh it off as a joke, that is pretty much exactly what men in similar situations are accused of, isn't it? If the clip were exactly the same, with her laughing as she did, no, I would not speculate this. I would take the woman at her word/laugh. Then again, in both cases, I would probably feel the need to push back if everyone was claiming "there's no way that's sexual assault because she laughed." I mean, it's the genuineness and the length of the laugh here. I could be wrong. It's not outside the realm of possibility that this woman feels/felt violated. I can't properly articulate why the speculation annoys me here. It's probably mostly what you said, the undertone of "so why isn't everyone calling this sexual assault"--not from anyone here but in general.
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Post by robeiae on Oct 29, 2017 12:38:15 GMT -5
For the record, my thread start here was click-baited so as not to let people prepare for the incident.
And with regard to the incident itself, it is true that I intended this thread to have a lighthearted feel, initially at least. Because imo, the kiss was playful, was something of a joke (tomfoolery). Still, there is a serious aspect to this kind of display in general, which is where I was hoping the thread might eventually go.
My opinion on the specific incident here is that it's no big deal, that it's an issue between the two women boxers. Nonetheless, such an action is, I think, hardly acceptable as a standard of behavior. And I think it's interesting and informative to see such things through a variety of perspectives and with regard to a variety of relationships (for instance, imagining that it was two male fighters instead of two female fighters).
My sense is that differences in what is acceptable and what is not reflect a reality: that peoples' allowances/expectations are significantly different, both with regard to their own sex, gender, and sexual orientation, and that of other people whose activities they might be witnessing.
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Post by robeiae on Oct 29, 2017 12:42:51 GMT -5
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