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Post by prozyan on Feb 14, 2018 22:28:52 GMT -5
We'll agree to disagree, but you do seem to be limiting Clinton's bad acts to his time in the White House. The reality is he has allegations of everything from inappropriate contact to flat out rape going back 40 years.
A creep is a creep is a creep.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2018 22:51:17 GMT -5
I said he was a chronic philanderer, so no, I'm not limiting it. I will note he's still on his first wife...
As for the Clinton rape allegations, there's a thread here somewhere -- I do not think Juannita Brodrick's story holds up to scrutiny at all, and I don't believe her. (I am not on team "believe the woman no matter what." I'm on team "I usually believe the woman, unless her story is totally full of holes." Which hers is, IMO.)
And I'm also considering things other than their overactive libidos. The Trump administration is a clown car. Clinton's was not.
But taking that aside and just talking pure philandering -- I actually don't give that much of a crap about it (although, ick, unprotected sex with a porn star -- I'd never forgive him if I were Melania). If that were all, I'd shrug. Okay, I'd buy a lot of popcorn, giggle, and shrug. Pay-offs, for me, are in another class -- in particular, just before an election.
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Post by prozyan on Feb 14, 2018 23:00:04 GMT -5
If we are going to compare the administrations and political acumen of Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, you'll get no argument from me. Clinton, for all his shortcomings, knew what he was doing and was a pretty damn fine President in my opinion.
If we are comparing their general sexual proclivities and creep factors, as I thought we were, I'll maintain there isn't a ton of difference between them. As Cosby proved, someone can be damned good at their job and still be a creep.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 9:55:50 GMT -5
If I were a spouse, I'd prefer my husband got a blowjob from an intern than repeatedly had unprotected intercourse with a porn star and frolicked with prostitutes (as the Steele dossier would have it), and paid them all off. My own personal distaste for this may give me a bias to some extent. But we can certainly agree that both men are skeavy on that particular front. Gaah! Use. A. Condom! Especially with someone known to have had a large number of partners! (I also have to add to Vince that, yes, as a woman, it happening while I was recovering from childbirth would make it worse to me. Another thing that would make it worse? She and Trump were relative newlyweds at the time, and Melania was young and seriously gorgeous-- more so, IMO, than the porn star. This was no seven year itch. This was "I am gonna aggressively screw every woman I can, bareback." (The lack of protection elevates it to really unforgivable -- he potentially exposed Melania to disease.) On a personal note, I broke off my engagement because my fiance cheated on me. One of the things that rankled most was that the woman was significantly less attractive than I was. My thought -- if I can't trust him now, when our love is sparkly and new and I'm as attractive as I'll ever be, with women who aren't even as pretty as I am, imagine the future." I might have eventually forgiven him if we'd been married for twenty years and he strayed.) On Cohen: he may also face a big problem under New York bar disciplinary rules. Things move so fast these days, until I read the NYTimes article below, I'd actually forgotten that Cohen also "facilitated" a written statement allegedly by Stormy Daniels denying the affair. If it turns out, as I believe it will, that this statement was false and Cohen knew it was false (as his making that payment would seem to imply), that's...not cool. Believe it or not, there are ethics rules for lawyers. www.nytimes.com/2018/02/14/us/politics/stormy-daniels-michael-cohen-trump.htmlBlind loyalty to an erratic narcissist is not a good thing. Cohen may just have fucked his career, and for what? He pleased Trump for about five seconds. Does he think Trump will show him similar loyalty?
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Post by Don on Feb 15, 2018 10:02:19 GMT -5
I don't give a hoot who blows who or who screws who. Infidelity in a politician bothers me because it directly addresses character. Anybody who will lie to their life partner to get their rocks off cannot possibly be trustworthy. If they'll risk the Big Lie, they'll lie to anybody else for any other reason in a heartbeat. I'm not going to believe a word that comes out of their mouth.
That's true of both Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. They're scum and they don't represent me. How anybody considers either of them a leader worth following, I have no clue. Support for either of them tells me far more about their supporter than they are likely to want me to know.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 10:11:34 GMT -5
I supported Bill Clinton and continue to think he was a good president, though one with a significant moral failing on that front. So I guess you know all you need to know about me.
And yes, I would prefer my president be more like Obama or W as a husband. But his cheating on his wife is not alone a dealbreaker. It wouldn't be with Trump, either, if that were all.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 15, 2018 10:51:53 GMT -5
I said he was a chronic philanderer, so no, I'm not limiting it. I will note he's still on his first wife... As for the Clinton rape allegations, there's a thread here somewhere -- I do not think Juannita Brodrick's story holds up to scrutiny at all, and I don't believe her. (I am not on team "believe the woman no matter what." I'm on team "I usually believe the woman, unless her story is totally full of holes." Which hers is, IMO.) And I'm also considering things other than their overactive libidos. The Trump administration is a clown car. Clinton's was not. But taking that aside and just talking pure philandering -- I actually don't give that much of a crap about it (although, ick, unprotected sex with a porn star -- I'd never forgive him if I were Melania). If that were all, I'd shrug. Okay, I'd buy a lot of popcorn, giggle, and shrug. Pay-offs, for me, are in another class -- in particular, just before an election. I feel the need to point out Brodrick wasn't the only one who accused Clinton of assault, but none should be assumed to be fact as none were proven.
If I were a spouse, I'd prefer my husband got a blowjob from an intern than repeatedly had unprotected intercourse with a porn star and frolicked with prostitutes (as the Steele dossier would have it), and paid them all off. My own personal distaste for this may give me a bias to some extent. But we can certainly agree that both men are skeavy on that particular front. Gaah! Use. A. Condom! Especially with someone known to have had a large number of partners! (I also have to add to Vince that, yes, as a woman, it happening while I was recovering from childbirth would make it worse to me. Another thing that would make it worse? She and Trump were relative newlyweds at the time, and Melania was young and seriously gorgeous-- more so, IMO, than the porn star. This was no seven year itch. This was "I am gonna aggressively screw every woman I can, bareback." (The lack of protection elevates it to really unforgivable -- he potentially exposed Melania to disease.) On a personal note, I broke off my engagement because my fiance cheated on me. One of the things that rankled most was that the woman was significantly less attractive than I was. My thought -- if I can't trust him now, when our love is sparkly and new and I'm as attractive as I'll ever be, with women who aren't even as pretty as I am, imagine the future." I might have eventually forgiven him if we'd been married for twenty years and he strayed.) On Cohen: he may also face a big problem under New York bar disciplinary rules. Things move so fast these days, until I read the NYTimes article below, I'd actually forgotten that Cohen also "facilitated" a written statement allegedly by Stormy Daniels denying the affair. If it turns out, as I believe it will, that this statement was false and Cohen knew it was false (as his making that payment would seem to imply), that's...not cool. Believe it or not, there are ethics rules for lawyers. www.nytimes.com/2018/02/14/us/politics/stormy-daniels-michael-cohen-trump.htmlBlind loyalty to an erratic narcissist is not a good thing. Cohen may just have fucked his career, and for what? He pleased Trump for about five seconds. Does he think Trump will show him similar loyalty? Do we know Clinton used condoms with his many affairs? Either way, we're splitting hairs. Both were pretty bad in their behavior. I just don't care so much about the Stormy Daniels thing in terms of an affair because my opinion of Trump isn't going to get much lower. I've heard some pretty bad things about John Kennedy too.
And yes, Both GW Bush and Obama were great role models and what I'd want to see in that role.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 11:07:15 GMT -5
It's not just unprotected sex -- it's unprotected sex with a porn star--e.g , with someone whom he knew as a fact had had many sexual partners -- each of whom in turn had had many sexual partners, who in turn... That is extremely high risk sex, compared to, e.g., having unprotected sex with your married lover or an intern. Moreover, Stormy affirmed that the sex was unprotected (in a magazine interview a while back, which I'll dig up if you insist), so it's not simply a "what if." Both Clinton and Trump have had rape allegations against them. Those I do count equally for the time being, or rather discount, since I have no real ground for assessing any of them except Juanita's -- yet. When and if I know more about them, that absolutely could change, for either or both of them. Juanita's account I found significant reason to doubt, but I'm open to believing either man is a rapist. True enough, after Bill Cosby ... So what I am going on are the skeavy affairs where there is something more solid to go on than a bare allegation. I find the known facts/reasonably well-supported allegations of Trump's personal life and affairs skeavier than Clinton's, but that's me. ETA: To note: the other two women who accuse Clinton of groping and harassment (not rape), Paula Jones and Kathleen Wiley: one previously testified under oath that Clinton didn't do that, Paula claimed Clinton had a distinguishing mark on his penis that actually he does not have, and witnesses have claimed that both had previously described their encounters with Clinton as consensual. www.vox.com/2016/10/9/13221670/paula-jones-kathleen-willey-bill-clinton-sexual-harassment-accusations(I need to find the thread where I took apart what Juanita claimed at some length. It was, alas, on Another Website, and would take me some time to re-create, since I cited numerous interviews, etc.) So actually, yeah, I don't find any of them credible. Clinton is certainly a horndog who cheated on his wife, though. No quibble on that, and yeah, it's icky.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 15, 2018 12:56:40 GMT -5
Ill take your word for it via Clinton and the rape accusation. There's nothing there that makes me think we should consider him guilty by a long shot in terms of rape. Same with Trump to a much lesser extent, meaning I don't think there's been evidence to contradict, as much as they haven't been proven.
As far as unprotected sex with a porn star, yes I get where you're coming from. And from the alter boy here who would blush at even being in proximity to a porn star, I'm with you. Having said that, porn actors get tested regularly. They have to. Prostitutes aren't regulated, so they don't. I do think much of my attitude towards Trump via this charge is it doesn't make me think less of him because I don't think I could go any lower. The idea of cheating on your pregnant (Or not pregnant wife) disgusts me. But from Trump, it doesn't surprise me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 13:07:14 GMT -5
And I get where you're coming from there.
ETA:
Another thing I hold against Trump with regard to his infidelities -- he flaunted it in his wives faces, bragged about his affairs in tabloids, successively dumping and trading in his wives for younger models, and basically humiliating all of them and showing a complete disregard for them as human beings.
Bill cheated on Hillary, but he didn't do that. I don't get the feeling Bill and Hillary are all over the moon crazy about each other (as clearly, the Obamas are), but I do get the feeling that there is a relationship of mutual respect and support, and that this is what keeps them together.
Don't get me wrong -- my idea of a good marriage looks like the Obamas or the Bushes, and absolutely that's what I'd like to see in our chief executive. I'm just comparing Clinton and Trump. I'd rather be in Hillary's position than Melania's, if I couldn't be Michelle or Laura.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 15, 2018 13:22:15 GMT -5
I mean, comparing Clinton to Trump in the icky scale strikes me as a discussion as to what size pole you wouldn't touch either with. In the end, does it matter that you wouldn't touch Clinton with a 10 foot pole, but you'd think about a 15 foot pole, whereas with trump the pole needs to be 20 feet for you to even think about it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 14:45:33 GMT -5
For me, though, the difference in poles (heh, poles, heh heh) between the two men, even if we limit it to just the infidelities (and exclude, for both, the rape allegations), is much larger.
Both are horndogs who cheated on their wives. But Trump consistently showed an utter disregard and contempt for his wives and women in general that leaves Clinton far in the dust. Have you ever read some of the details about his leaving Ivana for Marla and then leaving Marla for (I forget who, now)? Holy fuck. He fed details of his affairs to the tabloids. After he left Ivana for Marla, he then humiliated Marla by telling a tabloid he had no intention of Marrying her. Then he did marry her. Then he cheated on her. Repeat.
He didn't give enough a shit about covering up his sleaze for his wives' or the women's sake. Indeed, he was proud of it, even bragging about affairs he did NOT have (e.g., Carla Bruni). He didn't give a shit until he was running for president, and thought it might damage his campaign. Hence why the payoff to Stormy came ten years later.
That's way past infidelity, in my book.
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Post by Don on Feb 15, 2018 15:19:27 GMT -5
I think cheating on your wife is all that's necessary to show utter disregard and contempt. Trump's additional behaviors are just icing on a cake already made of turds.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 15:49:43 GMT -5
I don't agree that all infidelities are equal and fungible. I'll also note that some couples agree to look the other way on these things.
I'm not someone who feels that way, so I generally let someone know at the outset that it's one strike and you're out. But not everyone feels that way by a long shot. Some are actually fine with their partners sleeping with others. Some regard it as infinitely less important than other issues. Unless they tell us, we don't know.
We know how Ivana felt about Marla, because that's pretty damn public. We actually don't know about Hillary and Bill. No doubt she was humiliated by it becoming public. But it's just possible that she wasn't all "oh, I can't believe my Billy was untrue! I am personally devastated!" Melania may feel this way, too, for all I know.
And I absolutely think it's worse when long term deception is involved, or the partner is unknowingly being put at much greater risk for STDs than they knew, and when the cheating partner shows public disregard for the spouse's feelings when the thing comes out, rather than contrition.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 15, 2018 16:45:16 GMT -5
Maybe not quite in the same league, but I don't think Trump and Clinton are as far apart as you indicate. Agree. There's plenty more shit on Bill Clinton. And most of that shit took place while he was in office, as Gov or Prez. Arguing that Trump is oh-so-much-worse than Clinton smacks of desperation, imo. And I don't see the point of it, really. Trump is in office now, Clinton's been out of office for quite some time. What's the downside of saying "yeah, Trump and Clinton are both equally scummy, when it comes to sleeping around"?
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